Constant Plane Noise This Morning

[amy-s1.livejournal.com]

Let me say this first before you call me a whiner - watch the planes on this map for this morning of Friday 12/11: http://www4.passur.com/bos.html

You can replay any point in time with the menu bar at the top, you can even speed it up to 10X. Or you can watch "live" with a 10 minute delay.

Now, if those green planes dont go right over where you live, dont call the rest of us whiners. If they do go right over you, you know what I am talking about. My 5 month old daughter is constantly woken up by these planes and they can rattle the house.

Watch the flow of the planes coming off of runway 33L (the long one that points straight at Chelsea). The vast majority of them bank left and come straight over Davis Square almost every time. How about a little distribution over Harvard Sq, West Cambridge, etc?? Not to mention winds this morning are from the W/SW, not the Northwest.

Now, lets log complaints here: http://www.massport.com/logan/airpo_noise_compl.html

Comments

[genesayssitdown.livejournal.com]

i mean, i'm pretty sure there are no homes that have been soundproofed under the fcc or massport's budget are that far away from logan airport. the areas where such soundproofing has happened have been in communities REALLY effected by airplane noise, as they're within one or two miles, directly neighboring the airport. davis square is 5 - 6 miles away, the noise is no different from any other airplane noise 5 - 6 miles away from logan.

i remember being young and waking up to the house rattling, and booming sounds of jet planes overhead. in my mind, that's normal. that is just what it is like growing up. i had no idea until i was older that people in other areas of the boston area the same distance from logan didn't experience this.

i think we should get a little more conceptual and ideal with this and propose that all airports should be in the middle of nowhere, away from densely populated areas.

[somertricky.livejournal.com]

Couple of things:

a) I suspect it may be more important (comfortable, whatever) for planes to land into the wind than take off. Particularly with such a stiff breeze like today, I think you'd want to avoid a crosswind landing. Perhaps that is why the planes are landing to the west, and taking off over Somerville? I would think you'd try to avoid takeoffs and landings on the same runway.

b) Are pilots flying on visual cues? You could make an argument the planes are changing course and (roughly) following the Mystic River as it arcs towards the west. However IANAP, so WTFDIK?

[zenala.livejournal.com]

I grew up 10 miles from an airport and experienced *more* noise, and never heard people complain about it.

I really don't get the problem. And like I said, the planes go directly over my house.

What I do notice is that I sit on the runway at Logan much less than I used to 10 or 12 years ago, and don't spend as much time circling around the airport before landing, either. I'll take extra noise as a fair trade-off to that. On top of that, the airport is easier to get to than it used to be. What's not to like?

[ukelele.livejournal.com]

I giggle at your unfamiliar, yet instantly clear, acronyms.

[zenala.livejournal.com]

i think we should get a little more conceptual and ideal with this and propose that all airports should be in the middle of nowhere, away from densely populated areas.

Ooh! It could be like Dulles! There's nothing quite as fun as having to drive 25 miles out of a major city to get to the airport. [/sarcasm]

[genesayssitdown.livejournal.com]

haha i barely ever fly, fine with me!

[clevernonsense.livejournal.com]

The planes go directly over my apartment as well and I'm a bit closer to the airport than davis--so I assume the planes are even closer to the ground here. I don't think it's an issue--it's not exceptionally loud.

[surrealestate.livejournal.com]

In the areas the OP refers to, the noise is loud enough to wake up sleeping people even with all the windows closed. Seriously, you were ten miles from an airport and it was worse than that? If it was really worse than that, I can believe that you never heard anyone complain, but I can't believe that nobody *did*. There weren't the same sort of internet whine-fests back then, after all.

Personally, I have been woken up early by the plane noise and have had it be loud enough to interrupt conversations in the living room because people couldn't hear each other. Even so, I'm not actually all that bothered by it on the whole, but I have great compassion for those who are. I find it hard to believe that the people who insist it's no big deal (and shouldn't be to anyone) have actually experienced much of the noise the complainers are talking about.

(I was woken up this morning as well, but mostly dozed through it thinking a raging thunderstorm was going on. Very confusing when I noticed how sunny it was.)

[surrealestate.livejournal.com]

See my response to zenala above.

[dcltdw]

I am also not a pilot, but here goes my understanding.

1. Planes both take off and land into the wind, because what you really care about is your airspeed, not ground speed. So a plane, sitting on the ground, facing into a 10MPH headwind has a 10MPH airspeed. This is hugely important, because it's your airspeed that dictates whether your wings are flying or not -- "not" meaning the plane has stalled and thus you're plummeting like a rock. So on takeoff, you reach your fly speed earlier; on landing, you have a lower groundspeed, which means you need less runway to brake. Pilots kinda like not having to use the entire runway for takeoff/landing in the same way that drivers (well, non-Boston ones ;) ) like not using all of the distance between their front bumper and the rear bumper to brake to a stop.

2. Planes change course as directed by the ground controllers. Given the fast pace of departure operations, I don't think spreading out the noise footprint is at all a priority. My understanding is that you want departing planes to clear the area as quickly as possible, since lower densities of planes mean a correspondingly lower chance of collision.

Whether a given plane overflies Davis or Harvard is due to the variability introduced by how long it takes the pilot to verify the course change, the plane's speed, and how much of a bank the plane goes into (I -think- that a plane with no passengers may bank harder if the pilot is so inclined, but holy woah that's just a guess).

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

I suspect it may be more important (comfortable, whatever) for planes to land into the wind than take off.

The word you're looking for is "safe." :-)

Are pilots flying on visual cues?

Big jets? No, they're following a series of radar beacons. There are predetermined routes they're following, based on weather conditions, etc. If they're following visual cues something has gone BADLY wrong!

Re: Time to roll out the classic

[tamalinn.livejournal.com]

srsly.

[aroraborealis.livejournal.com]

Let me preface my comment by saying that I don't mind the plane noise, and I am happy to mock people who do.

However, the argument that the noise is a good trade-off for less time circling in the air or waiting at the airport or what-have-you is a bad one, because not everyone gets to make that trade-off. It works for the set of people who both live in areas of increased plane noise AND who fly or use the airport such that things are better now than they were. For the many, many, many people who live in areas where plane noise is a factor of daily life and who can't afford or otherwise have life circumstances that don't provide for travel by plane, this isn't a trade-off.

[808.livejournal.com]

While most Boston area jets fly into logan under IFR (instrument flight rules), it is quite common for jets to also fly VFR (visual flight rules). But there is a difference in IFR also. Even if Boston is under IFR guidelines, if the weather prevents using VFR as a backup, then certain conditions are put into effect to increase safety (like increase distance between planes).

So, yeah, pilots of big commercial jets use visual cues in most conditions - but usually as a secondary source of info.

At my house, my big complaint is that when it rains road traffic is too loud to sleep with open windows. But I accept it as part of living next to a big street. It stinks, but is offset by having a bus stop 50 feet from my front door (especially nice in the Winter!).

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

Well, I learned something today, I was pretty much told visual was only the primary way of navigating if everything else failed. Thanks!

[koshmom.livejournal.com]

Have you been to Dulles lately? It's building up all around there (Herndon, etc) and I wonder if the new "locals" are starting to complain about plane noise?

[koshmom.livejournal.com]

If you physically can't sleep because you live too close to plane/bus/road noise, then perhaps you might want to consider moving to where there is none of the above. However, if you insist on living in a crowded metro area, then you have nothing to complain about, because you chose your living conditions. If you say you can't live elsewhere because there's no work, well, you selected that career. If you like your standard of living, there's plenty of people who like their standard of living and they don't deal with plane/bus/road noise. Lots of people live in the 'burbs or further out.

It's your choice. Complaining that you're stuck when you chose your life isn't my issue, it's yours.

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

To be fair, there's Washington International Airport, which is three miles from the center of town, and Dulles has to be 25 miles away because it's freakin' HUGE.

[oneagain.livejournal.com]

Sorry, that argument does not entirely fly (pun not intended, but greatly enjoyed). Not that I don't appreciate it, especially since I know those rules apply to you somewhat, you being white, very educated, almost unusually empowered, especially for a woman (you might forget that, being surrounded by a number of other intelligent,empowered woman) and perhaps haveing a string of options that not everyone else has. Doesn't mean it applies to everyone. And btw, not everyone selects their career. Sometimes they do what they are called to or what they are most talented at, depending on their skills, and have to go where the work is available, especially in these times. And sometimes folks deal with health issues/disabilities, and have to be close to familial support, wherever that might be.

[somertricky.livejournal.com]

"Safe", thank you.

There was a period when flying to Upper Michigan from Detroit involved a substantial amount of flying to the northeast (even if you took off to the southwest, which is 95% of the time in Detroit) - until you could see the Pontiac Silverdome, then the pilot would bank and then fly northwest from that point. This would really piss off anyone alert enough to know where they were heading...

This would be comparable to taking off from Logan to the southwest over South Boston, doubling back to Cape Ann, and then flying northwest to Montreal.

We used to joke the pilot had to fly northeast until he got to I-75, so he could follow it north.

[koshmom.livejournal.com]

I think you should look at thetathx1138's post, a few below this one. Notice the boxes that say "This is different!" "IS NOT!" "IS TOO!"

That's where we are. You are in America. You DO choose your lot in life. If your choice is to "do what you are called to do" then you can do that in many different places, many different cities. If you have a health issue/disability, that doesn't mean you are forced to live on a street where you can't sleep. Every city/town has facilities that aid people in that situation. And "close to familial support"? MOVE ONE STREET AWAY. Now, if you're a quadrapaligic in a coma, perhaps you don't have much of a say, but if you are at all mobile and living at least mostly on your own, you don't need to live that close that you hear the bus's announcements of stops. You just choose not to move and choose to complain. I choose to respond to you.

And you think I live a guilded life? Hah! think again. My father had a wife, a 1-year old baby, and another (me) on the way, had just put a down payment on a house and got laid off. He had to move from being a junior sales person making a very mediocre salary, barely getting along, to being a grade school custodian, pouring sawdust on children's vomit in the public school hallways. He was the sole breadwinner until my mom started work when I was in the 4th grade as a tailor in a local clothing store for enough money to feed our little family. I knew noone in the "business world" yet it was the only career I was apparently cut out for. Since I had no experience or anyone to ask about how the business world works, I got laid off/canned/lost business-political battles all over the place. Don't go telling me that I have options that you don't have...There is NO advantage to being a woman in today's world. The only advantage is if you are willing to sacrifice your morals and self-respect to kow-tow to some idiotic boss. Which I didn't do, and thus got laid off/canned/etc. What options do I have that others don't? Here's the "option" I always had to live by: "Deal". or "Don't deal". and "Don't deal" usually had others look at me and say "oh, you can deal" and ignore me, thus I had to Deal even if I couldn't.

yup

[grateful1311.livejournal.com]

love the second paragraph. couldn't agree more =)

[ron_newman]

that's Washington National not International. I don't think any flights go from there to non-US destinations. Yes, I know it got a new name a decade or so ago, but I refuse to use it.

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

Ack, it is national, I don't know what I was thinking.

And, yes, the name the Republicans inflicted on that airport is not its proper name. Hopefully in my lifetime it'll be changed to something more appropriate.

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

Yes you totally should! We could give the proceeds to local charity and thus appear to be a group of decent human beings underneath it all. ;-)