On saying things in public

[cos]

First of all, this post is not about JonMon specifically. I'm posting in response to this thread, and as in the comments I made on that thread, I intend to address something more general in our culture that this lawsuit relates to. I'm writing here about some of the effects of lawsuits like this, and the kinds of reactions people have to them, generally.

Set JL = People who have are being currently sued by JonMon or have received letters from him informing them that they'll be added to the suit.

Set A = People (most of them not connected to JonMon or this lawsuit in any way) who have been sexually assaulted by someone who had previous assaulted or showed warning signs to multiple other people in their social circles or communities, where such people had shared information privately with each other about this someone, but that information had never reached the assaulted individual before the assault.

Members of set A who I am personally aware of, exceed members of set JL who I am personally aware of.

This is despite the fact that I'm confident that I'm personally aware of only a teeny tiny minority of the global membership of set A, while I am probably personally aware of a significant percentage of the total set JL.


So, when someone promotes the message "people need to be more careful about what they say on publically-accessible community forums about serial assaulters in their communities", I believe I need to respond loudly that the actual problem is that, on the whole, people are too careful about what they say on publically-accessible community forums about serial assaulters in their communities.

Again, this is independent of any assertions people make about JonMon. It's also a much bigger problem, that affects orders of magnitude more people, than the current lawsuit. But to whatever extent some well-meaning people's responses to the lawsuit may contribute to this larger problem, I want to try to balance that out.

Comments

[aroraborealis.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this.

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

Seconded.

[pooka-madness.livejournal.com]

And thirded.

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

This is something that has been bugging me a lot - there is someone trying to use the legal system to keep women from calling out a potential problem to other women, by threatening their reputations and privacy in a culture where those things are considered requirements of women to protect themselves (i.e. if your privacy and reputation are compromised you very well might not be given assistance, much less actual justice, if such a threat were to come to fruition). The potential for loss of money is really bad, but it's still a secondary issue relative to people's safety.

For another examination of this type of problem, check out The Missing Stair (http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2012/06/missing-stair.html).

[beowabbit]

A very important point.

Sort of a tangent: Unfortunately, chilling effects are chilling specifically because there actually are real (sometimes small, sometimes large) risks to you if you don’t self-censor. And sometimes that’s still the decision we’ll make. But we should at the very least be aware when we’re making it.

[gingicat]

I was thinking about this myself this morning, that lashon hara isn't just slander, it's any lies or even gossip that can harm others. Lies of omission also count. And if the general scuttlebutt is that the person you know to be an abuser is a really good person and a pillar of the community, you're much more likely to hold the damaging things that happened to you, or someone you know, close to you because you've been taught that lashon hara is only the other way around.

[icecreamempress.livejournal.com]

Re: that thread, I myself don't come here to be scolded by strangers from the sidelines about how I am Doing It Wrong in a matter that is important to me, and in relation to which I am investing time, energy, and money in order to help others.

[icecreamempress.livejournal.com]

This is beautifully said, and I couldn't agree more. Thank you.

[bluesauce.livejournal.com]

Seconded. Especially not by a stranger who, by her own admission, associates and takes coffee with the likes of Jonmon.

[firstfrost.livejournal.com]

If it got him to drop the lawsuit, I'd buy him all the coffee he could drink. :}

[purgatori84.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting this.

[sparkgrrl658.livejournal.com]

fourthed (or more by this point i'm sure, but still).

also, i have said, and will keep saying, that beyond all the stuff my friends have experienced first hand, any person that holds the opinion of "you did not go to the police, therefore i did nothing wrong" is a creep in my book for that opinion alone.

forfuckingreal.

[cos]

I think you're referring to Shava's post, but I'm referring to the specific thread which I linked to on that post.

[ron_newman]

I believe this is exactly what she is trying to accomplish with that coffee.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

I was looking for that link recently. Thank you. And thank you to cos for this post!

[pywaket.livejournal.com]

This.

[sommerfeld2.livejournal.com]

So, I'm not Jewish and I'm not familiar with Jewish tradition, but I noticed something in the article you linked to..

The page you linked to defined "lashon hara" as true speech used for a wrongful purpose; it uses another term for lies.

quoting from that article:

"Speech is considered to be lashon hara if it says something negative about a person or party, is not previously known to the public, is not seriously intended to correct or improve a negative situation, and is true. "

and, seemingly directly relevant to this discussion:

"If the lashon hara serves as a warning against the possibility of future harm, such communication is under certain conditions, compulsory. "

Not merely allowed.. compulsory! (I wonder what the "certain conditions" are...).

[icecreamempress.livejournal.com]

My apologies for derailing your post a bit, then. I agree strongly with your point.

[icecreamempress.livejournal.com]

That is a generous thing for her to do, and I wish her success.

[magid.livejournal.com]

The last time I learned about the laws of lashon hara, I learned of two conditions that necessitated telling something like this: when asked about someone as a potential business partner, and when asked about someone as a potential spouse. There may be other circumstances I'm not familiar with as well.

[cos]

I'm Jewish (secular) but don't know the details of this either. However, since it's Judaism, I think you're supposed to argue about it :) Ideally, you'd agree in part and disagree in part, and the arguments would be made of philosophy and logic, and be long enough to fill up pages.