Not a productive post

[two-stabs.livejournal.com]

My apologies if you're the one whose lawn chair I ran over (and over) and then parked on, but you shouldn't leave garbage in a public parking spot.

Comments

[mraudet.livejournal.com]

[i]I shovel out a spot. If I leave, and come back, and someone has taken it, I go get another spot. Sometimes that means I have to shovel again, the horrors![/i]

so you will attempt to pass on your problem to someone else by doing what was done to you (taking their hard earned spot). if you cannot pass on your problem, you will then shovel another spot as a last resort.

you pass the problem on to some other anonymous* person.

*to be fair, you didn't answer my question re: if you would take your buddy's spot or the lady downstair's spot. perhaps you would pass the problem on to someone else regardless of whether you know them or not.

[pierceheart.livejournal.com]

so you will attempt to pass on your problem to someone else by doing what was done to you (taking their hard earned spot). if you cannot pass on your problem, you will then shovel another spot as a last resort.

No, I recognize, as you seem to be incapable of doing, that parking spots don't belong to me, or anyone else. They are public property.

Part of owning a car in a city like somerville means you have to take some responsibility for the difficulties associated with winter driving - like the problems finding parking spots.

So, explain to all of us why you're entitled to have a parking spot saved if you leave it.

[mraudet.livejournal.com]

first off, i fully "recognize" the spot does not "belong" to me, or anyone else. i've made this point clear. i am arguing that my efforts have now changed to a dynamic based on respect of effort.

your reliance on a "doesn't belong to me" justification does not change the fact that you are passing your problem on to someone else. the anti pay-it-forward, if yo will.

i have taken responsibility. i have cleared out a spot for me. what responsibility have you taken? you choose to pass the problem on to someone else.

seriously? why be obtuse? i'm entitled to the spot because i have put the effort into shoveling it. this is the argument i've been making since my original post. seriously? seriously.

i'm curious why you still haven't answered my question re: do you take spots of friends or just anonymous spots? i've asked it several times with deafening silence in return.

finally, i'm happy to discuss this further, but i'd ask you to discontinue asking me stolid questions and would appreciate you answering my questions as i have politely done for you.

[pierceheart.livejournal.com]

I take spots where I find them, within a certain distance of where i live. If they're cleared, I take them, if not, i clear them.
When I leave a spot I cleared, I do not feel like i have earned the right, nor changed the dynamic, to entitle me to the spot when I return.

[mraudet.livejournal.com]

yes, yes. this was clear when you said as much several posts ago. i'm reading the thread, mind you. i'm not sure, however if you are. not a single direct response to any question i asked. not one.

[pierceheart.livejournal.com]

I've answered your questions; you just refuse to accept that my answers won't get any more specific.

Too bad, so sad - you don't get everything you want, precious.

[mraudet.livejournal.com]

I've answered your questions; you just refuse to accept that my answers won't get any more specific.

you sir, are unintended comedy.

[pierceheart.livejournal.com]

How's this for answer as to whether I take from strangers or friends - I'm 100% sure that, were I to take a marked spot, it is not one that my friends have marked - they don't consider themselves entitled to do such things.

You sir, are still an entitled prick.

It's cold out. I'm eating my popcorn

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

and enjoy the show... Keep going, guys! :)

[mraudet.livejournal.com]

I'm 100% sure that, were I to take a marked spot, it is not one that my friends have marked - they don't consider themselves entitled to do such things.

and just when i thought we were becoming fast friends...

[ratatosk.livejournal.com]

(I'm trying to point out a possible miscommunication here, not make any sort of complicated value judgment.)

One note on "spots of friends" here -- this concept makes sense in a world where you talk to your neighbors and know who goes with which cars. If you never even see your neighbors, all spots are anonymous. (It probably also makes a difference if cars don't all look alike to you.)

Personally, despite the fact that I have lots and lots of friends living near me, I don't know anyone who owns a car, parks on the street, AND whose car I can also recognize.

concerning anonymity

[mraudet.livejournal.com]

a valid point. i would submit that this is the very reason that you don't park in a spot that you have not cleared. to do otherwise requires various assumptions and judgments (i.e. this anonymous spot is ok to take, my roomates & old mother hubbard's are not) that i would rather not make.

it would be interesting from an anthropological point of view, to know if there is a correlation between transient populations and a such local phenomena as "the snow chair". i would suspect there is. when the residents cities such as boston and somerville were less transient everyone knew cars, spots, chair types, etc. there was accountability for action. with the increase in transient population comes the anonymity that people who take spots rely on.

they no longer have any social consequence for taking advantage of other peoples' efforts. anonymity protects them.

Re: concerning anonymity

[two-stabs.livejournal.com]

"to do otherwise requires various assumptions and judgments"

You're incorrect. The very nature of a public parking spot dispels the need for any sort of assumption or judgment.

Re: concerning anonymity

[two-stabs.livejournal.com]

I also wanted to say that I'm very eager to let people whose trash I move off of the street know exactly who I am and exactly where I live, but I've yet to come up with any practical ideas as to how I might accomplish this. I suspect it's those that are reserving spots who are the ones relying on anonymity and flush with shame.

Re: concerning anonymity

[mraudet.livejournal.com]

so you will park in your roomates spot? the old ladies' down stairs' spot? your friendly neighbor's spot?


despite professed eagerness it is convenient that you've yet to come up with any ideas. none?

in the interest of helping you out i'll offer this one: post your name, address, and phone number in the window of your car. alternatively, post a nice note on the chair that is under your car identifying who you are and explaining why their chair is under your car. you can even include a copy of this thread rather than duplicate the effort.

honestly, your posts read as someone with a solution searching for an explanation. how do you logically get to a conclusion where someone placing a chair in a spot they cleared is somehow relying on anonymity? is flush with shame? seriously, what contortion have you come up with?

Re: concerning anonymity

[pierceheart.livejournal.com]

how do you logically get to a conclusion where someone placing a chair in a spot they cleared is somehow relying on anonymity?

In the interest of helping you out, I'll offer this one: the people who want to save spots, can put their name, address and phone number on the item they wish to use to mark the spot.

That way, when DPW comes and picks it up, they'll know who to fine for littering.

Oh, no, that would be too much like admitting they know it's wrong to mark spots.

[tfarrell.livejournal.com]

Actually, no; you are in fact claiming that the spot "belongs" to you, and that you will defend your claim of ownership by criminally damaging the property of anyone else who uses it. You lack of use of the word "belong" is irrelevant.

This is the action of a petty napoleon, not of a law abiding citizen and upstanding member of the community.

If I catch you vandalizing anyone's car, I'll get a photo and give it to the cops, and you can explain it to the judge.

I might just call the cops and point them to your remarks here, just because you piss me off.

[mraudet.livejournal.com]

Actually, no; you are in fact claiming that the spot "belongs" to you, and that you will defend your claim of ownership by criminally damaging the property of anyone else who uses it. You lack of use of the word "belong" is irrelevant. not sure what this semantic point is trying to prove as it, ultimately, forwards the discussion not one iota. but i'll play.

look, words have meaning. context has meaning. you have focused on a word, imparted your own context to it and ascribed it to me. i did not use the word belong because that implies ownership, which i have explicitly not claimed (despite your assertion). instead, i have claimed temporary exclusive usage rights. there is a very significant difference between ownership and usage rights. don't believe me? ask your landlord.

the 2nd half of your post more inane than the 1st.

[snow-how.livejournal.com]

On the topic of shoveling out "another spot" if need be ...

I would really like to know where all these wide-open tracts of unshovelled parking opportunity exist in Somerville! Because on my street, during a snow emergency, every parkable inch of the odd side of the street is lined bumper-to-bumper with cars... so if you -- not that you live on my street, but if you did -- dig out your car and drive away after marking your spot, and then Mr. and Mrs. Stompy McNoisypants, who live upstairs from me, come home and park in "your" spot (because I never would!), then you come back, WHERE IS THIS MAGICALLY CLEAR PLOT OF GROUND YOU'RE GOING TO CARVE ANOTHER SPACE OUT OF FOR YOURSELF WITH YOUR SHOVEL?

On the one hand I think this 'custom' is stupid because if even one person fails to "honor" it, the whole thing falls down (if you claim a space and someone takes it, you have no choice but to take a spot someone else was parked in before).... but on the other hand, the whole topic is stupid because after the snowmergency is lifted, the whole even side of the street is wide open, plowed, and unclaimed by dicks who think their shovel is a deed to a piece of street.

[mraudet.livejournal.com]

a good question. my neighborhood isn't too bad, but i can imagine areas that are bumper to bumper. my understanding is that public lots are open during snow emergencies. you can park there until they open up the even side.

in the meantime i'd remind the neighbor upstairs that they are parking in a spot they didn't shovel.

[two-stabs.livejournal.com]

lol.

[snow-how.livejournal.com]

But what would you do if this was the case on your street? If someone's in your spot, and all other parkable turf is either filled with cars, or marked by the people who dug their cars out previously, where would you put your car?

The reality of this 'system' is that to the extent it works at all, it does so only because of the people who dig out their cars and DON'T attempt to claim their spots. If not for them, you'd have to circle the block for hours waiting for the culprit who took "your" spot to vacate it so you could reclaim it.

[mraudet.livejournal.com]

As I wrote when you asked me the 1st time: a public lot.

Lets not be falsely dramatic you don't have to drive around. You have options: Go to a lot or start digging. After all, this is what happens to the loser in your version of musical chairs, isn't it?

I disagree that it doesn't work. This system does work and has worked for ages in numerous cities. The system is organic, community based, and self policing. It rewards hard work. It penalizes laziness.

[snow-how.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately it also penalizes those who are at work or otherwise away from home (with their cars) during a snowstorm, and therefore don't even get the privilege of digging their car out of a spot that they can then "call their own," as you would have it.

But as we both agree, all problems are erased by the lifting of the snow emergency and the opening up of the other side of the street. No need for anyone to fret -- or save a spot -- after that, as it opens up plenty of clear curbside parking for all.

[pierceheart.livejournal.com]

You raise a good point - I've usually been lucky enough to find spots which haven't been cleared on streets which only have property on one side of them - it seems a number of people don't realize the even side ban doesn't apply there.

I go shovel a spot there, and hope it's there when I come back, after I leave it.

I'm more annoyed (than at those who mark) at people who do NOT live in my neighborhood, who can't pay attention to parking bans, and cause the plows to divert around their cars, causing loss of parking spots on the even side - the same person has done it in all of the snow emergencies we have had this season, AND they occasionally park right on the corner of the street: no "maybe it's 19, maybe it's 20 feet" but with their bumper on line with the curb of the intersecting street.