The lawsuit

[sonofabish.livejournal.com]

Here is the link to the lawsuit over airplane noise.


I posted it with comments locked out so folks can use this strictly for information purposes. If the mods decide otherwise, they can unlock it or request for me to unlock it and I will do so.


{edit- Ron requested I enable comments- done.}

Comments

Curtatone will have my vote again.

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

Just for this. And he knows it.

[mjrocks98.livejournal.com]

Am I the only one who is always getting woken up by this???? Reading all the other comments on the other posts I feel like I am in the minority being fed up with the plane noise. I didn't know there was anything that could potentially be done about it & am happy someone posted the complaint form. I do realize that the planes have to make noise somewhere, but being woken up at 5am because it sounds like they are taking off from my roof is not okay. I would not have moved to Somerville last summer if I had known it would be this bad. I have lived even closer to other international airports than I do to Logan & have never come across noise like this.

You are not the only one.

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

There are many people like you in the various threads too. That is why the lawsuit exists. It is just that a few vociferous idiots have decided that, since they are not bothered by noise (weather they can actually "hear" it or not is unclear), then nobody else should.

[vibrantabyss.livejournal.com]

Glad to see the 16 years of data. Makes it much clearer, since all I had seen before was 1-2 years.

And interesting that the FAA tailored to stay near historical loads, but goofed in their modeling. Or at least that's my read...

[sonofabish.livejournal.com]

It was interesting to see the figures. Keep in mind- the information provided doesn't give both sides of the story, only that of the litigants. What would be interesting to have is a breakdown of delays before and after the new runway opened, as well as an environmental impact statement on the effect of planes having to circle in holding patterns or on hold on taxiways waiting for clearance to take off.

What's also missing is a statement as to how the flight patterns- and the increased flights over Somerville- affect those over other parts of the city. There's significant NIMBYism as work here where people just want to shove the problem onto someone else.

Polite request

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

Could you please refrain from calling people idiots simply because they don't agree with you? It is offensive.

[surrealestate.livejournal.com]

A lot of people who are commenting about not being bothered don't actually live under the flight paths. Some of them don't even live in Davis Square. I don't know how many of them, if any, are actually hearing what you're hearing.

IME, location matters a lot, as within a short distance, the sound can vary from something close to street noise to having to yell to be heard by the person I'm talking to.

[cold-type.livejournal.com]

Anyone know how much this lawsuit cost?

[shana-lyons.livejournal.com]

No, you're not the only upset person by far. I get woken up by the planes pretty regularly. On some days, (like yesterday) I feel like Delta is dive bombing my house. But, since arguing over plane noise on the internet is unlikely to solve the problem, I try not to get into internet fights about it. And frankly, this topic always devolves into a fight. I'm amazed that folks who don't have a problem with the noise are so pissed at people who do.

Re: You are not the only one.

[zenala.livejournal.com]

As I pointed out, I'm not unaffected by the noise. I can hear it perfectly well, and if I'm watching TV, it disrupts my signal (I use antenna, and with digital, the signal just plain goes out rather than getting fuzzy) which is quite annoying. It's just that I like having a convenient airport with less time spent on the tarmac. I'm not about to impose costs (not just monetary) on the rest of society just so I can watch CSI uninterrupted. (And I'm talking about my own, personal TV viewing, I'm not mocking other people.)

[zenala.livejournal.com]

I live in Medford. I can see the planes directly over my house, and most definitely hear them. I know what I'm talking about. It's sometimes annoying, but it's definitely a trade-off I'm willing to make.

And regarding someone else's comment, no, I most definitely don't take drugs, and I'm also sensitive to many noises.

Re: You are not the only one.

[docorion.livejournal.com]

What she said. I disagree with you about the noise, and I find your use of the term 'idiot' to paint all persons who disagree with you about the noise insulting.

(You can call me an idiot once you know me better-it'll still be insulting, but if you're going to insult me, do it with more data than you have now).

It was particularly bad yesterday ...

[winterhill.livejournal.com]

... over Winter Hill. That and the daylight savings time shift really screwed up things at 6 a.m.

[vibrantabyss.livejournal.com]

I'd also like to see data on the safety concerns that seem to have caused the FAA to swap the takeoff and landing loads.

[sonofabish.livejournal.com]

That part is in the lawsuit, as well as a recent article from Wired magazine about the separation needed between planes. Basically, it's a helluva lot better to take off directly into the wind (not to mention safer) that into a cross-wind. Same goes for landings. The FAA found that when they ran take-off/landing patterns through a simulator that using the current pattern was a lot more efficient, rather than the one they originally proposed.

[sonofabish.livejournal.com]

Let me ask you- and I don't mean this to be facetious- if airplane noise is a problem for you, why do you live near an airport?

Re: Polite request

[ron_newman]

Seconded.

[ron_newman]

I wouldn't say that Shana lives 'near an airport', any more than I live 'near an airport'. She gets the noise while I don't, yet we live just a few blocks from each other.

Is location the main difference between us, or is it the construction of our living quarters? (I'm in a 1929 brick apartment building; I don't know what Shana's place looks like but I suspect it's an older wood-frame house.)

[talonvaki.livejournal.com]

This is true. NIMBYs can be a real problem. One of the things that lead me to move to Atlanta was the fact that MARTA (their "subway") was so awesome. It went to the airport, it went to the sports arena and the ballpark, anywhere you needed to go it went to, and it was fast, efficient and relatively modern since it had been significantly upgraded for the 1996 Olympics (I moved in 1998).

And it was all of those things. It went to all the things in town you needed to go to. Thing is, it didn't come from anyplace close to anyplace people lived, unless they lived downtown. You had to take a bus to get to every train station. And the buses were crappy. There was no shade at many stops (and standing in direct sun in Atlanta in the summer is oh so very fun), and they didn't make frequent runs. I think the one at my stop had a bus come every 15 minutes, but only every other one went to the train station.

Why? Because no one wanted to have a station near where they lived, because they said the stations attracted "the wrong element." The trains made noise. The tracks were ugly. SO here's this fairly awesome transit system that is nearly unusable because you have to drive to get to it.

Then the city wanted to put in light rail/something like the green line, to supplement the system and provide service to more neighbourhoods. Public outcry was adamant: NOT IN OUR NEIGHBOURHOOD!!! It was universally agreed that public transport was a good thing, especially with the air pollution and traffic jams Atlanta has...but no one wanted to have a train near their home.

So yeah. I don't hear the planes at Summer & Hancock. But even if I did, I wouldn't mind them...because I treasure my ability to get to those planes without a car when I need to.

[talonvaki.livejournal.com]

We all live "near the airport" when compared with other cities, particularly San Francisco, Atlanta and Chicago.

I'm sure they will support my lawsuit to stop the green line extension

[http://users.livejournal.com/_mattt/]

I am suing to stop the green line extension because I live near the proposed path and I don't want to hear the increased noise. I look forward to having all of their support.

[docorion.livejournal.com]

Because the statements we largely see from them are: "Noise bad! Close airport! Everyone else must stop having airplanes because I am bothered!"

Not in so many words, but that's the gist I generally receive from what is said. No apparent recognition that airports and airplanes are in any way a good. No concept that, in order for them to sleep undisturbed, other people must be woken up instead. No concept of shared benefits and shared cost. It may be that the people who are complaining do, in fact, have such a concept, but they don't communicate the nuances of their understanding very well.

I get that noise is bothersome. I don't, for instance, like being woken up by trash collection at oh-dark-hundred in the morning (especially the never-to-be-sufficiently-damned backup beepers). But I do like not having trash in the streets, so I shut up and deal. Airplane noise can be bothersome; I get trying to abate it to some extent. But reasonable people can differ on what constitutes reasonable efforts at abatement. My sense of the lawsuit is that the FAA's modeling made some poor assumptions, and they have stonewalled city efforts to negotiate. To the extent that it's an attempt to force the FAA to negotiate in good faith, bravo. But to the extent that it's an attempt to send airplanes anywhere except over the homes of the litigants, I cry foul.

[mjperson.livejournal.com]

Well said.

[vibrantabyss.livejournal.com]

So the complaint claims the FAA claims, although I would like to see actual supporting data, especially since those results mysteriously didn't turn up in the initial FAA modeling...

As for data: data *from logan itself* for jan and feb have prevailing winds in 300-360 8 (Jan) and 6 (Feb) days and 240-300 9 (J) and 15 (F) days. and exactly 300 2 (J) and 1 (F) day. So in fact 27 should have seen heavier use than 33 for takeoffs both months.

(http://www.weather.gov/climate/index.php?wfo=box for those that want to mine and munge data themselves)

[sonofabish.livejournal.com]

The converse can also be held as true, Ron. You do live near an airport, but for whatever reason, the noise is more problematic for her for what can be a whole range of reasons.

Just from my standpoint, when wind conditions dictate that planes take off and head over Somerville, their "loudness" is affected by a number of things including current weather conditions including if it's raining/snowing and relative humidity. In the winter when it is very cold and the sky is clear, sound carries a helluva lot better.

And I also have to mention that where I live, when the conditions are right, I get the noise from the Amtrak/commuter rail yard and can hear the trains being shuffled around- this usually happens between the hours of midnight and 1am.