Can/Should people be able to post housing ads stating, "No children?"

[rigel.livejournal.com]

Since this seems to be of interest: Here's a placeholder to discuss the MA Fair Housing Statute, specifically as it applies to housing ads made in this area.

I'm posting this to give people a chance to discuss the merits and flaws in a place designed for it rather than on my housing post. To those who were offended by my indicating we were less interested in tenants with children, I apologize and have changed the wording. To those who felt it was fine, well, ok.

Either way, could this discussion happen here rather than on my housing post? I'd prefer people not pass my post by because they see a lot of comments and assume it's interest in the apartment rather than discussion of the statue.

Thanks!

Comments

Re: Yes, the should not only be able, they are allowed to do so.

[chenoameg.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's not how the lead paint thing works.

As a landlord (if I meet the criteria for not small owned etc.) then I must rent to families, and if there is lead in my apartment I must pay to have it removed and pay for them to be housed elsewhere while I do so.

[chenoameg.livejournal.com]

It is my understanding that the rules for roommates and the rules for tenants are different.

But it's true, the code just mentions discriminatory advertising. Other people's thoughts?

[lbmango.livejournal.com]

There must be different laws for landlords and people looking for roomates. While it's perfectly acceptable to say "I'm a 25 yo woman looking for another woman to live with" IOW, only accepting female applicants, it would be a problem for a landlord to say "I only want to rent to a woman".

Note: IANAL, Also, I'm applying logic to law, take that as you will.

[talonvaki.livejournal.com]

I'll repeat what I said over there and start the ball rolling:

I love how it's perfectly okay to say "no pets," but say "no children" and it's OMG notify the authorities! time.

Kids will do more damage to an apartment/home/residence than any animal could ever hope to.

I'm just tired of people with pets having such a hard time finding places to live, while people with children cannot be discriminated against in that way.

Of course, I also once lived in an apartment downstairs from an apartment with two pre-teen girls who used to rollerskate on the hardwood floors up there...I know what it sounded like, and can only imagine what those floors looked like!

[chenoameg.livejournal.com]

I'm just tired of people with pets having such a hard time finding places to live, while people with children cannot be discriminated against in that way.

Write to your state rep and/or contact pet owner groups to lobby the state legislature.

I do resent having to put up with other people's kids...

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

Especially when they have parents who do nothing to teach them how to behave in the world.

[pensivewombat.livejournal.com]

OMG THIS! As the proud owner of a non-destructive feline, i am SO freakin' sick and tired of the hoops i have to jump through to find a pet-friendly apartment (and then, of course, it's a "one pet only" apartment). Also, i keep my home immaculately clean, which is more than i can say for a number of non-pet owners.

Sigh.

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

I love how it's perfectly okay to say "no pets," but say "no children" and it's OMG notify the authorities! time.

It might have something to do with the fact that you can't really unload a child on someone if you're looking for an apartment.

[anomie666.livejournal.com]

Probably best left for davis_meta. BTW, if someone sees lots of comments, they would more than likely click on the post, not pass it up. They wouldn't assume the apartment was taken, etc.

It probably is a good thing for you.

I was fine with your wording. I didn't think it was a problem.

[magg1es.livejournal.com]

It is technically illegal to state "No Children" or even suggesting no children.

But, being someone who could not be around children and stay sane (my life style does not facilitate child-friendliness), I was not offended at all.

Your best bet is to leave out the "no children" part, giving a chance for those who do have children to respond (as is the intent of the law), but obviously select the roommate who would be more comfortable. It's a little redundant, but a good way to stay out of discriminatory trouble.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

Strictly speaking, even if your ad didn't say anything about kids, a person with kids could still bring suit if they thought that you had denied them the apartment because they had kids. But it would be VERY hard to prove, so that pretty much never happens. And housing discrimination against people with kids is still rampant in the Boston area, despite the law.

[mamajoan.livejournal.com]

I'm no lawyer, but just from looking at the page you linked, it says this:
"Licensed real estate brokers, managing agents, lessees, sub-lessees, or assignees of such dwellings, commercial space or land are covered by M.G.L. c 151B, s.4" (emphasis mine)

You, as I understand it, are a lessee. Therefore the law does indeed include you, if I read it correctly.

Members of this, or any, community are free to debate ad infinitum the abstract question of "should a person be allowed to say 'no kids' in a roommate-seeking post?" However, as a matter of actual codified state law, the fact is that such a statement is illegal. Think it should be legal? Fine, you're entitled to hold that opinion. But as with anything else, deliberately breaking the law as an attempt to make a statement is, well, a suboptimal way of getting your message across. If you want the law changed, talk to your duly elected governmental representative.

(n.b.: I understand that the OP is not "deliberately breaking the law as an attempt to make a statement." I put that in there to make my position crystal clear.)

The law against housing discrimination based on family status did not come into existence in a vacuum. It was crafted due to a perceived need for such laws: partly because of the lead-paint issue, partly because of the sheer shortage of living space in the Boston area, and partly because there will always be assholes in our world.

I agree with the other posters who say that kids can damage a home just as much as, or more than, a cat or dog; and therefore it seems silly, by some lights, to ban discrimination based on kids but allow discrimination based on pets. However, as others have pointed out, children are generally regarded as human beings, who have more rights than animals. A child grows up to be a taxpayer, a contributing member of society, and, one hopes, a person who knows better than to pee on the rug. A dog, not so much. And in any case, that's a straw man. The question of whether "no pets" is discriminatory according to law is irrelevant to the discussion of whether "no kids" is discriminatory according to law.

Easier to do what everybody is already doing.

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

Don't say anything in the ad, pretend to check out all prospective tenants, until you find one that fits what you really want. Always say you have to go through all applicants before giving an answer.

[lizzielizzie.livejournal.com]

Personally, I would be surprised if anyone with a child wants to rent one of the bedrooms in your house. That would be odd to me. So, I don't think it will harm you in your search for a new roommate to keep the "no kids" part out of the ad.

That being said, I think in a roommate situation it is perfectly OK to indicate whether or not children are welcome. For landlords, there's that pesky legal thing. (EDIT: Although it seems that, according to a previous comment, it is also a pesky legal thing for you! Sad.)

I would kill for childfree housing. I just can't stand the noise, and I'd pay extra to avoid it. (I feel the same way about incessant dog barking too.)

[wandelrust.livejournal.com]

Hmm, if it's illegal to refuse to rent to families with children, how are those 55+ communities legal?

[wombatbanana.livejournal.com]

MGL ch 151b sec 4 para 6 (http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/151b-4.htm) says:

The word "age" as used in this subsection shall not apply to ... residency in communities consisting of either a structure or structures constructed expressly for use as housing for persons 55 years of age or over or 62 years of age or over if the housing owner or manager register biennially with the department of housing and community development.

[perspicuity.livejournal.com]

you might phrase the ad such that it indicates an opening for a one bedroom opportunity and that you desire one additional roommate.

that kind of cuts down on couples, families, communes, and the like... in a fair, and hopefully legal fashion.

#

Have you considered calling 311?

[anu3bis.livejournal.com]

Have you considered calling 311?

Re: Have you considered calling 311?

[rigel.livejournal.com]

For what? I don't actually have a question. I mostly wanted to get the statute discussion off my roommate ad post. :)

[coeceo.livejournal.com]

Usually when it comes to finding new roomates, most folks are really finding someone, then presenting said person to their landlord and saying, "this person is replacing soandso on our lease for next year" or something like it. Technically you do not enter into any direct contract with that person, your landlord does. So really you are soliciting a new friend, and no laws really govern that.

And for the pet lovers, fimilial status is a protected class in MA, pet ownership is not, thats whay landlords can specify.

[koshmom.livejournal.com]

I could see you stating that you wish to have only ONE housemate. So therefore, if a potential person appears with 6 children (or just one) they are therefore 7 (or 2) people. Not what you want, not what your one bathroom can handle, and therefore you can say "no".

Of course, there's people who say "my 6 kids are good kids, and won't interfere with you using the bathroom" and "we all sleep in one room". What can someone do in that situation?

[whaler.livejournal.com]

The landlord would never allow it. Apartments get zoned to house a certain number of people I'm fairly certain.

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

Every roommate ad I've ever posted has included "Sorry, no children or couples" and I've never had trouble result from it. On the rare occasions when I was asked why no children, I told the honest truth, that this apartment is an entirely unsuitable environment for children, being a 3rd floor walk-up with every non-child-friendly hazard imaginable, from a high non-enclosed balcony to thin walls that in no way mask the sounds of the frequent sex had in the apartment. I've never had someone argue back after hearing that. :-)

Also, my lease specifies that only 2 people can live in the apartment. I bet your lease has a limit of occupants, too. If not, you could ask your landlord to add to your lease that only 4 (or whatever number you want) can live there. That alone would get you off the hook.

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

I have to admit, now I'm intensely curious as to how many families rent versus how many move out of Somerville, and what kind of apartments they occupy. My apartment would be suitable for a family of four, but it would break their budget.

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

I think at the end of the day, the best way to handle in the ad is to make clear that you are looking for one person only. A parent and child are two people. That cannot be argued with (but it probably will be here). If your landlord is nice, they can back you up on the occupancy limit.

Obviously, this won't work if you're looking for multiple roommates. But you aren't, so it would be an easy work-around in your specific situation.

I think your method is better

[http://users.livejournal.com/_mattt/]

Knowing me, I would just advertise: "Seeking roommate for one bedroom. Large bear trap." But even nowadays, a bear trap would not be enough of a deterrent for those who should not breed (http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE56067K20090701).

[icecreamempress.livejournal.com]

Here's the thing:

So far, zero lawyers have posted.

One current real estate professional and one person with a real estate license (me) has posted that they have been told (in my case, by the real estate attorney who was teaching my class at the Boston Center for Adult Education) that roommate situations are different from non-resident landlord situations--people looking for roommates can specify ages, genders, and other things that are illegal for non-resident landlords to specify.

One person has posted the text of the law, which seems to indicate that roommate situations are not different from non-resident landlord situations.

Certainly, there is currently no enforcement of gender specification or age specification in roommate ads in Massachusetts. Both newspapers and Craigslist run ads that specify the preferred gender and age of roommates.

So nobody is going to be prosecuted for running a roommate ad here that specifies gender or age. As to "no children"? I doubt it, given the long-standing precedent of roommate ads that violate age and gender protection.

[icecreamempress.livejournal.com]

One current real estate professional (I am assuming, surrealestate that you're currently working in the field. If that's wrong, my apologies.)

[elements.livejournal.com]

I don't understand why this was even an issue. You guys aren't owners, you aren't advertising for whole new tenants to the apartment, you're looking for *housemates*. Last I checked, NO laws say that you can't discriminate however you choose in who you allow to live with you in your own home.

I have no interest in living with children *in my apartment* either, even if it's not full-time cos the parent/roommate isn't the primary custody-holder. There is absolutely nothing wrong, legally or morally, with stating a preference for the kind of person you want to have living with you, including the kind of guests they would be likely to have on a regular basis, etc. I'd feel utterly free to advertise that I don't want to live with a smoker, for example. What's the difference?

If you were landlords looking to rent out an entire unit, then it would be a whole different story.

An answer that actually cites something

[davidglasser.livejournal.com]

Hi folks! I am not a real estate or law expert, so instead of just making things up I am going to link to an organization who has reason to know what they are talking about!

Craigslist (who has been sued for not actively moderating discriminatory housing ads on their site) has an excellent page on the Fair Housing Act: http://www.craigslist.org/about/FHA.

The situation is somewhat complicated. There are several protected classes under this federal law: race/color, national origin, religion, sex, familial status, and handicap/disability.

Now, in a roommate-style situation ("decisions made by landowners who own less than four units, and live in one of the units"), the lessor *can* legally discriminate in *any* of these categories (at least under federal law) in making their decisions.

HOWEVER, it is only legal for them to *advertise* that they are discriminating based on sex. So rigel is perfectly in the right (at least as far as the federal FHA is concerned) to discriminate based on kids... but the FHA does prohibit her from mentioning this in an advertisement.

(It's possible that other law, like MA or municipal, also prevents her from discriminating in decision-making based on familial status; http://www.craigslist.org/about/state_fair_housing_laws#MA seems to suggest no (though marital status is suggested), but who knows.)

The only out here that I see is that the decision-making exemption mentions "landlords" and I do not know if she counts as a "landlord" here. But it does seem unlikely to me based on the Craigslist page that there are any exemptions to the *advertising* law here.

Re: An answer that actually cites something

[whaler.livejournal.com]

Just curious is there any difference between an advertisement placed in a newspaper and a sort of casual one like on craigslist or on an LJ community? or are they considered the same?

My two cents......

[tt02144.livejournal.com]

~Somerville has a law that specified how many unrelated people can live in one apartment. I don't know the specifics, but do know that it exists.
~As to the comment about the difference between advertising in, say the Globe, or Craiglist or LJ, that's a gray area that I don't think has been figured out yet. There was an article somewhere this year, I believe, on that very question.
~Someone posted that they have an 'unenclosed balcony'. Do you mean that there is no railing? That is certainly illegal, children or not.

[darxus.livejournal.com]

One of the reasons I have not become a landlord is my unwillingness to deal with children. More destructive capability than a lot of pets, and not a lot more you can do to communicate to them why they shouldn't damage things.