Victimless crimes involving drugs.

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

 How much money would be saved if, as Ron suggested, police in Somerville (or MA) stopped pursuing victimless crimes involving drugs? Does anyone know if  such a proposal is being discussed seriously anywhere? Excuse my ignorance...

Comments

[m00n.livejournal.com]

As someone who's watched multiple presumably-drug-related arrests occur in front of the Indian market just down the street from my house and seen how much brass appears to be involved, I am also curious about the answer to this question...

[m00n.livejournal.com]

Talk about something that costs more than the fireworks.

Yes, over the course of one year

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

probably it's way more than the fireworks! But every bit counts :)

[tt02144.livejournal.com]

What would you consider a 'victimless' crime involving drugs?

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

The general standard is drug use is a victimless crime, because it's something the user does to himself.

Drug sales are another matter, depending on who you ask.

[ron_newman]

Any crime that does not involve violence or fraud. (And we already have laws against violence and fraud.)

[derekp.livejournal.com]

So you're cool with your neighbor running a meth lab? Just checking.

[ron_newman]

No, as that would endanger public fire safety (and therefore violate residential zoning).

[derekp.livejournal.com]

So where do we draw the "endangering public safety" line then? If the newly emboldened drug dealers of Somerville choose to call the front stoop of your apartment complex or the corner of your block home base for their operations, does it not stand to reason that a public safety hazard would ultimately result?

I'm not a fan of the "war on drugs" in this country, but I think it's naive to think that a single city could do anything on its own to change the culture around drug sales and use. If Somerville chooses to look the other way on drug crimes in order to fully staff the Library, drug dealers wouldn't all of a sudden chose to incorporate, wear a shirt and tie to work, and arm themselves with lawyers instead of guns. There are still state and federal laws at play. Hell, state and federal funding would be pulled quicker than you could spend any budget surplus that developed from not pursuing drug crimes.

Haven't you seen what happened when they did this on The Wire ;) ?

[thespian.livejournal.com]

this. the police don't actually care about some guy peaceably selling meth (ahem). Except that it's made somewhere, putting innocents at risk from unstable labs, and encourages other crimes such as burglary, etc. Even if some meth user out there were totally cool, and able to afford it, and didn't bother anyone, much like when you shop at Wal-mart, you're encouraging the environment.

This isn't to say there aren't victimless drug 'crimes', but most of them aren't as victimless as people think, simply because they're not connecting the acts to each other, treating the buy as completely disconnected from the creation/acquisition by the dealer, etc.

That is a difficult issue...

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

I mean, the fact that some drug addicts end up stealing stuff to pay for their habit, rather than go to detox. But don't gambling addicts end up doing the same?... Look at Markoff (assuming he had a gambling disorder)...

Re: That is a difficult issue...

[thespian.livejournal.com]

Markoff is, though, a little different than Rocco over on Winter Hill.

Seriously, I wonder if this isn't a little bit of Davis Square myopia; I don't know how many of y'all spend time on Winter Hill, down by Assembly, south of Union, etc. It's...really different there, much more dangerous, much more crime ridden.

Re: That is a difficult issue...

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

I have to confess I NEVER go there...

Re: That is a difficult issue...

[thespian.livejournal.com]

i have to admit, I have a different view of this than a lot of people around here. I have lived in a lot of bad neighbourhoods; Savin Hill in the early 90s, Apollo Heights in Raleigh, the industrial area around the Georgia Dome in Atlanta, Parkdale in Toronto. In my opinion, there are very few 'victimless' drug crimes if you escalate above marijuana.

In Parkdale around 1990, I got to listen to people in my boarding house discuss robbing my apartment for my stereo (the *dealer* liked me, though, and threatened to kill the discussers if they did; that was just a pot thing). In Apollo Heights, I found a guy in the wooded area behind my house who had ODed. Surely a victimless crime - he did it to himself, after all. Except someone had to find him, and that was one of the most horrible things I've ever had happen to me.

The problem is the insiduousness of the whole thing. Overlooking a little local victim/violence free incidents results in the back end escalating (hey, as long as *I* don't blow the place up, meth labs are ok; as long as *I* don't engage in violence when I make a sale, they'll overlook it, etc. What gets done as a corollary to my sales is irrelevant).

I'm not fond of the so called Drug Wars. But there's a good reason why 'victimless' crimes are prosecuted under the current system.

Re: That is a difficult issue...

[purpless77.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree with everything thespian has said.
I'm not generalizing but I think A LOT of new people here don't understand what REALLY goes on in Somerville. They move from nice areas or have been to areas where things are more obvious. They don't look deep enough. The drug issues here are out of hand. I went to school with many kids who have then and since overdosed and are no longer with us. The people some of them have robbed were victims. The families and friends, that lost them who tried to help are victims. The younger kids the USERS pushed drugs on are in a sense victims. I know druggies who used to rob people in Davis all the time and that wasn't that long ago. I knew druggies who robbed houses, stores, kids, etc. All in Somerville and not all of them committed their crimes in deep East Somervile either. There are plenty of users in and around Davis and further west. Sometimes going to jail or being arrested is enough to get them to at least try to fix up there lives. Unfortunately some are lost causes. I agree if we let them "get away" with these negative actions it will only further escalate the the bigger problem.

Re: That is a difficult issue...

[purpless77.livejournal.com]

That should say, "I couldn't agree MORE with everything thespian said".

Re: That is a difficult issue...

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

Well, relatively. Seriously, Boston's "bad" neighborhoods don't get anywhere close to the Tenderloin or some of Philly/NY's absolute worst.

Re: That is a difficult issue...

[arrowintwolakes.livejournal.com]

I was about to say, I live in Winter Hill and I don't think it's bad at all (having worked in West Philly and having friends in the Bronx.) "Colorful" is how I would describe it.

Re: That is a difficult issue...

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

I lived on Winter Hill for almost two years. Down near Sullivan is a bit rougher than the rest of the neighborhood, but truthfully, I never feared for my safety even if I was walking back to my place at 12am.

Re: That is a difficult issue...

[ron_newman]

I'm reasonably often in different parts of Somerville, including all of the areas mentioned. None of it feels very dangerous to me. I used to regularly commute by bike at night from downtown Boston through Charlestown, East Somerville (Pearl St) and the foot of Winter Hill. (And my synagogue is at the top of WInter Hill.)

[ron_newman]

I don't know if there is a proposal, but I'd like there to be. I put it on the table for discussion last week when people were talking about Somerville city budget cuts and their effect on the Library.

I don't see anything positive that comes from enforcing these criminal laws. Giving young people a criminal record makes it hard for them to later attend college or get good jobs. Because this business operates illegally, disputes between distributors (or between consumers and distributors, or producers and distributors) frequently lead to violence and sometimes to death.

The systems we now have for controlling and regulating alcohol and tobacco may be flawed, but they work a lot better than the drug enforcement system, and I bet they don't cost nearly as much to administer. And if the Sam Adams distributor gets into a business dispute with his counterpart from Anheuser-Busch or Harpoon, they can settle this in the civil court system rather than resorting to violence.

[perich.livejournal.com]

Per this report on Marijuana Arrests in Massachusetts (http://www.drugscience.org/Archive/bcr6/Marijuana_Arrests_in_Massachusetts.pdf) (warning: .pdf), there were 825 arrests for marijuana possession in Middlesex County in 2006 (the most recent year for which data seems to be available).

(The report as a whole has some very illuminating data; I haven't had time to read all of it)

Wow. Thanks!

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

That is a lot of money down the drain...

Re: Wow. Thanks!

[cnoocy]

We've had a referendum on the subject since, though. I suspect 2009's numbers will be significantly lower.

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

I wish it had a breakdown of how many of those arrest are permanent residents versus students, however. Boston's data is going to be severely distorted because it has a bunch of colleges in its boundaries, and thus a quite large population of non-resident marijuana smokers.

can't be arrested for that anymore

[cos]

The law has changed. You can no longer be arrested for possession of marijuana in Massachusetts by state or local authorities, only fined up to $100. It's no longer a criminal offense. Unless you have more than ten ounces (which is a lot). Federal authorities could still arrest you, but there aren't many of them and they're not likely to be arresting people for drug possession except when it's in connection with other bigger crimes that drew Federal attention.

[anomie666.livejournal.com]

In reality, only a very small percentage of people actually favor complete decriminalization of "victimless" crimes. All laws are a reflection of public morality and people see these crimes as an assault on public order and the predictability of society.

Millions of people die each year because of legal alcohol use. I don't see how making black tar heroin or crack cocaine legal will save lives or promote public safety.

I'm with people on decriminalizing marijuana and have supported that referendum.

[ron_newman]

I'm not a 100% Libertarian (as you know), but I think the drug laws cause "assault on public order" more than they prevent it. See, for instance, current events along the Mexican border.

Can you articulate, Ron?

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

Do you mean that people use more drugs BECAUSE there is a law to be broken, out of some form of rebellion? Just making sure I understand.

Re: Can you articulate, Ron?

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

This might come in handy:

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

It's a Google mashup of incidents occuring over no-knock raids. Not all of these involve drugs, but drug dealers being able to destroy their weight is a reason offered to continue no-knock policies.

Re: Can you articulate, Ron?

[sonofabish.livejournal.com]

Interestingly enough, over in Amsterdam, where it's quasi-legal and can be purchased in "coffee shops", not a lot of natives smoke it. The majority of the problems that require the police to step in involves alcohol, and I have to tell you, when the Dutch police step in, it is seriously crazy. At Leidsplein (one of the big squares with many bars/clubs, including Melkweg and can be seen in the Amstel commercial with the guy juggling the soccer ball), they park there in this huge grey truck and at the first sign of trouble, they pour out of it swinging clubs at anyone in their path.

Meanwhile, in the coffee shops, people hang out and stare at their feet for hours on end.

[dougo.livejournal.com]

If drugs are outlawed, then only outlaws will sell drugs.

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

I'd favor dropping drug use as a charge, but legalization of anything harder than marijuana, not so much.

I agree with that.

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

Probably 75% of the police time is spent on mj cases, but that is just an uninformed guess, based on a non random sample of news...

I call bullshit on this

[zmgmeister.livejournal.com]

75%? I can't remember the last time I read about an MJ bust.

Narcotics on the other hand....

[rmd.livejournal.com]

well, if you stop arresting and prosecuting drug crimes in this city, you'll certainly succeed in bringing business to the city as dealers flock to the area.

i'm sure that would go well.

That is a good point....

[nvidia99999.livejournal.com]

Like many other laws that cannot be implemented unless all other states/cities do so.

[perspicuity.livejournal.com]

they would just have to spend MORE money, on something else. bureaucrats rarely like to spend LESS.

#

[thetathx1138.livejournal.com]

Please, even with the new marijuana citation law, there's plenty of crime for the police to deal with.

[perspicuity.livejournal.com]

yes, like the crimes on the garden!

#

[zmgmeister.livejournal.com]

the crimes on the garden, hash mark.

interesting.

[anyee.livejournal.com]

Meth is a victimless crime until someone botches the lithium extraction or some other part and blows up the house.

...oops.

[zmgmeister.livejournal.com]

Most of the little crime that we do see in our area, is addicts stealing to get their fix.

[elbren]

I think that drug busts are in fact money-making operations for police departments, due to all the property seized.

First Person Account

[tt02144.livejournal.com]

I'm still amazed at how naive some people are concerning drugs, despite the fact that I, too, was that naive just a few short years ago. There is NO such thing as a victimless crime involving drugs. Most 'addicts' began with pot or alcohol. That's a fact. No, it doesn't mean that all pot smokers will become addicted to other drugs, but for someone who is wired to become an addict, it is the beginning that they need and leads to cocaine, heroin, meth, whatever. Once addicted to any substance (alcohol or drugs) there will be crime, as well as enormous medical and social costs. I have dealt with this first hand and have seen that entire families are destroyed. As for arresting people? I think they should be more willing to arrest people, because often the criminal justice system holds jail time over your head and often that's what it takes for someone to finally become clean. You would be shocked at the clean cut and polite young people walking the streets of Somerville who are active users of heroin. Still unsure of the extent of the problem? Call a detox or rehab center any day of the week and try to find a spot for someone who wants to recover.......
So unfortunately, I don't think that pot should be legal to use or to possess. I guess that's too bad for those who are able to use pot without negative consequences, but for those who become lifelong addicts because they smoked pot in high school, it's a very good thing.

Re: First Person Account

[chenoameg.livejournal.com]

So are you a supporter of replacing the prohibition on alcohol sales in the US?