davis_square | Harvard/Alewife red line problems

nvidia99999.livejournal.com posting in

After reading the MBTA report, I got a bit worried, since I take the red line between Davis Sq and Harvard Sq a lot... Page 26 of this report (www.boston.com/multimedia/2009/11/04mbta/mbta_review.pdf) talks about it.

The Boston Globe has an article on the report (www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/11/04/report_finds_ts_riders_at_risk/ ) saying: "One delayed project highlighted in the report, which has been deemed critical to public safety, involves repair of a water leak on the Red Line between Alewife and Harvard stations. The $80 million project would replace a system of slabs and disks, designed to absorb train vibrations, that has been damaged by water leaks. In some areas, fasteners are corroding and the tracks are moving out of alignment, the report states, presenting “the possibility of train derailment.’’

If it's critical for public safety, does it mean it's not safe, currently?

Current Mood: scared

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From:

fefie.livejournal.com

From a subsequent AP article on boston.com on the matter:
"D'Alessandro [the guy who wrote this independent review of the MBTA releases today] told The Associated Press on Wednesday he would not ride the portion of the Red Line highlighted in the report, though [Gov.] Patrick told listeners to his monthly radio call-in show that he would. The governor said the problems are well known, but he ordered additional inspections Wednesday morning. "
http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2009/11/04/study_mass_transit_passenger_safety_put_in_peril/

From:

nvidia99999.livejournal.com

in the second half of the Harvard/Porter segment. Usually, it's extremely noisy too. I wonder if that's because of track misalignment.

From:

http://users.livejournal.com/_mattt/

The tracks slip slightly out of alignment over a period of time and become worn out. It's natural, and that just requires regular replacement of those segments. I don't believe there is a critical situation there.

In the situation with the Alewife box tunnel (the Alewife to Davis segment of the T), a water leak has been allowed to persist for years, causing critical elements that hold those tracks in place and adsorb vibration to rust out. These then run the risk of failing catastrophically.

Excessive noise on the red line is often caused by a lack of maintenance on the carriage wheels or suspensions.

For example, hearing a banging or thumping as the wheel turns is common, but nothing more than a sign of neglect. The steel wheels develop flat spots from braking, and these need to be turned out periodically. If the T doesn't do this, the flat spots grow, causing louder and louder banging. Likewise, suspensions need to be maintained.

From:

nvidia99999.livejournal.com

I was reading the other Boston Globe report, where Patrick says he would ride the Red Line:
"Despite the startling findings, Governor Deval Patrick emphasized the system’s safety yesterday, even riding the Red Line himself on his way to the airport for a trip to Washington".
Now, wouldn't that be the segment that goes from Park Street forward? That is not the incriminated Harvard/Alewife segment! What the hell?

From:

nvidia99999.livejournal.com

The question is if he would do so on a daily basis. Clearly the probability of something bad happening is proportional to the frequency of one taking that section of the Red Line. It would be nice if people put numbers to claims of risk, though. What does D'Alessandro think such probability is, on a per trip basis? .0001? .00001?

From:

http://users.livejournal.com/_mattt/

No infrastructure is 100% safe.

The question really is: is the T sufficiently safe for revenue service? And to that I personally have to say no.

Being a licensed Professional Engineer in the State of Massachusetts and having read the report, I personally do not feel comfortable riding the red line segment in question. Nor would I recommend riding the segment to other passengers.

I am deeply concerned about safety on certain portions of the T, and have switched to driving those routes instead. This includes the segment in question (I admit I could take the bus).

As the recent Oakland Bay Bridge incident (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33585082/ns/us_news-life/), the I-40 landslide (http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=102739), and the I-35 bridge collapse in Minnesota (http://minnesota.publicradio.org/collections/special/2007/bridge_collapse/) a few years back have shown, decades of neglect and mismanagement of our civil works have led to a critically unsafe situation. I fear the next news story will involve the MBTA.

I also have some confidence that the MBTA would cease operation if the situation became critical, but we don't always have such a warning.

These are just my personal feelings on the matter.

Edited Date: 2009-11-04 11:12 pm (UTC)

From:

nvidia99999.livejournal.com

Concretely, do you think it would involve train derailment in that Red Line segment? A fire?...

From:

secretlyironic.livejournal.com

Is it any safer to drive in Boston, though?

From:

nvidia99999.livejournal.com

Good question... While we have stats on driving in Boston, due to the large numbers involved, unfortunately we don't have stats on the red line tunnel collapsing or on a train derailing, since it's an infrequent event. Like we did not have stats on those ceiling plates on the Big Dig collapsing on somebody, due to bad glue.

From:

http://users.livejournal.com/_mattt/

I personally feel it's safer in this instance. Mass transit, especially rail travel, is typically orders of magnitude safer than driving. I really have no way of knowing.

From:

turil.livejournal.com

It probably depends on what, specifically, you are driving.

From:

ron_newman

I'm not sure a landslide (an act of nature) belongs in that list.

From:

antimony.livejournal.com

The 1-40 landslide, and many other ones onto roads, are at the root caused by the fact they've carved a road into a hill that was already on the steep side, and made it much worse. Just because the final thing that sets it off might be natural, doesn't mean the results aren't the fault of the road being misplaced/misbuilt/etc.

From:

http://users.livejournal.com/_mattt/

The cause is still under investigation, but it is believed by some that underfunded highway maintenance and a lack of adequate slide protection measures along the highway led to this inevitable result.

From:

m00n.livejournal.com

Wait a second. You're concerned about the safety of the Red Line and so you're driving a car instead? Are you sure that's really the most logical assessment of relative safety?

Even a poorly maintained train is still orders of magnitude safer than driving a car.

From:

http://users.livejournal.com/_mattt/

It just goes to show you how unsafe I believe the Red Line is, that I would risk life and limb to drive in this city rather than take the T.

On average, any form of mass transit is far, far safer than driving (especially here). And yes, I should take the bus.

But I am deeply concerned about the condition of certain segments, where I believe the risk is greater than driving a car.

From:

m00n.livejournal.com

I think you're severely underestimating the risk of driving a car. Even in the worst case scenario for what would happen to the T if the tracks were to fail in the way that is being predicted, the likelihood of fatalities is still fairly remote. Also consider that with the exception of this one form of failure, there really aren't a lot of other ways to die riding an MBTA train. Contrast this to the possibility of, say, one person completely missing a stop sign at any one of the dozens of cross-streets on Mass Ave between Alewife and Harvard, to say nothing of the risk of encountering a drunk or distracted driver that decides to leap the median or worse. There's a reason that car accidents are one of the top four causes of death among children under 14. I doubt there are enough train-related fatalities nationwide to even warrant counting it (except for people being hit at grade crossings, that is).

From:

turil.livejournal.com

The stats I had from a few years ago that went into the police training program for the government stated that automobiles are the number one cause of death even in younger adults, and in women up to their thirties.

From:

stellasirius.livejournal.com

i know many people who have turned to their cars as a way to avoid the frustrations and inequities - and risks - of riding the T. cars are not the answer! as a community, i think it's clear that we need public transportation that is safe and reliable. it is the socially just and environmentally responsible option for daily travel. what can we do, besides diverting our funds away from the MBTA?? would sending this report to elected officials have any effect?

From:

dariusk.livejournal.com

This is more or less completely off-topic, but wow, Christina van Vleck did an amazing job designing the report! It's really beautiful, readable, and functional...

From:

nvidia99999.livejournal.com

Way to go Christina van Vleck!

From:

curiositykt.livejournal.com

Isn't this why it goes really slowly at that point between davis and harvard?

From:

nvidia99999.livejournal.com

At times, the trains go REALLY fast between Harvard and Porter... I have to put my hands on my ears, on those occasions.

From:

m00n.livejournal.com

I don't think they ever go much above 30 mph in that segment, it's just that the poor track and bearing maintenance has made even that relatively low speed unbearably loud.

From:

http://users.livejournal.com/_mattt/

The speed between Harvard and Porter is actually 45mph.

The tight turn just on the inbound side of Harvard is 6mph, IIRC

Edit: The speed between Harvard and Porter is up to 45mph in the straightaway segment. Certain other parts are lower at 30mph.

Edited Date: 2009-11-05 04:03 am (UTC)

From:

dylanesque29.livejournal.com

Honestly? I'm more concerned about that foul smell in Davis....whatever it is, it can't be all that healthy to breathe in.

From:

ominousspectre.livejournal.com

Is there a fowl smell inside the train station, or are you talking about that weird smell that seems to be on Grove Street? That's the only place in Davis I've ever noticed a consistent weird smell, and I've always just assumed it was McKinnon's trash or something similar.

From:

dylanesque29.livejournal.com

The smell I'm talking about is on the platform, on the leftmost side towards the end.

From:

secretlyironic.livejournal.com

Yeah, seems like something died on the tracks near the platform.

From:

geekpixie.livejournal.com

Maybe one of the pigeons that has been frequenting the platform? ugh.

From:

hrafn.livejournal.com

There's often the smell you get when something electrical goes Wrong (burning insulation, I think, thank you disabled trains), is that the smell you're talking about?

From:

http://users.livejournal.com/_mattt/

There's always a subway odor. Part is natural, and mostly ozone from the electric motors and third rail contact pickups. It smells like office copier smell. Is this something different?

From:

nathanjw

No, there's a decidedly garbagey odor at the southbound end of the platform, about where you stand to get on the first car (which is where I usually am). There's no obvious trash source nearby, and it seems like any particular source of the smell should have long since finished decomposing, so it's pretty weird.