Dilboy VFW Development Clarification

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

Remember this entry? Well, I promised a commenter that I would speak to the commander of the post to clarify the development and, since this garnered enough interest, thought it would be nice for the community to hear it from the Dilboy (which I am now officially representing here):

1. The Dilboy VFW owns the facility it currently occupies, along with the parking lot behind the Winter Hill Bank. ETA: The current building is not being torn down!!

2. 1/3 of that parking lot has been given over to a 99 year lease to Dakota Development. On that 1/3 of the lot, a 31-unit condominium complex will be constructed.

a. Parking for the condos will be underground (a new structure to be built underneath the existing lot).
b. The VFW will retain 67 of the already existing above-ground spaces, in the current parking lot, for it's membership and function hall.

3. The VFW is constructing a new, 2 story structure on the vacant lot next to the parking lot (where the MBTA shaft currently stands).

a. Deliveries and cabs will still be routed down Summer Street, into the parking lot. There will be NO increased traffic on any side streets as parking has not moved from it's current location. Delivery trucks could not navigate the side roads even if we wanted them to, so the delivery entrance will simply be across the current parking lot from where it is now.

b. This new facility will be handicap accessible which the current facility is not.

If you have any questions or wish to see the layouts/plans in person, please contact the commander, Mr. Bob Hardy between the hours of 9 - 11 am, Mon - Fri at 617-666-8794. He is setting this time aside to field concerns, questions, or set up one to one meetings if necessary to show and discuss the plans which are moving forward.

As for the Craigslist posting that started all of this, the property has not been turned over to Dakota yet. We are not selling what we own, simply doing a swap with the developer. So likely, it wasn't legitimate.

Hope this helps. If I've forgotten anything, feel free to ask in the comments or give Bobby a call.

Comments

[badseed1980.livejournal.com]

Yay for solid information! :)

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

I live to serve, Ma'am. : D

[ifotismeni]

w00t! thank you!

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

: D Anytime. I hope it helps.

[mattdm.livejournal.com]

2. 1/3 of that parking lot has been given over to a 99 year lease to Dakota Development. On that 1/3 of the lot, a 31-unit condominium complex will be constructed.

That's gonna be an awesome surprise for owners of condo units who didn't read the fine print, a century from now.

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

I can't really comment on that since that's on the developer. The commander can probably answer to that though.

Of course, if I bought a condo there 2 years from now, likely I wouldn't be around to see the lease renewal in 99 years. If I am though, that would be pretty awesome.

[unferth.livejournal.com]

I expect buyers will find out during the purchase process - you can't get conventional financing for a leasehold condo. And of course neither can your prospective buyer if you ever want to move out, so they're harder than average to resell as well as more expensive to purchase than the purchase price would indicate. The lofts along the bike path have a similar problem.

[surrealestate.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the update!

Do you how big that lot is? I'm curious as to the square footage that will contain 31(!) units. How many stories will that structure be?

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

I don't know. If you don't want to call, I can certainly ask myself at a slightly later time. I believe that Bobby was going to talk to Dakota's PR folks too to hopefully get something out on that particular aspect of the development.

Let me take notes and see what I can find...

[lbmango.livejournal.com]

Well, it looks like it's 33 parking spaces so... one unit per parking space... B-)

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

Um, as I said, the developer is actually the best person to answer this question. That's a bit of conjecture right there. We would prefer to squash rumor, not fan the flames. There are a few people who would take that quote and run with it.

[lbmango.livejournal.com]

sorry, I was basing that on the fact that you said it was 1/3 of the lot and the lot appears to be 100 spaces (You said "the remaining 67 spaces...")

Really all I meant to say was that the footprint was going to be about 33 spaces... I figured that Surrealestate might be able to estimate the height based on average condo size from that, maybe...

you can probably get almost 10 units on a floor with that, so I'd GUESS 4 stories.

But as you say, the developer will know for sure.

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

I understand. It's just that some of the most vocal opposition to this has already put out a lot of misinformation and I don't want anyone glomming on to anything else to spread, you know?

I see your point though. I'm not a maff person, but also keep in mind that the parking lot is not all parking spaces (there is ample room between rows) the spaces long the fence abutting the shaft lot are angles - the ones along the chain link abutting the street behind are paralell to the fence itself. So, it's not quite so cut and dry when figuring s/f. : )

[ron_newman]

There's a 50-foot, 4-story height limit throughout Davis Square (and most of the rest of Somerville), and I think the developer intends to conform to it rather than requesting a variance.

[lbmango.livejournal.com]

my calculation was totally back of the envelope... I figured 33 spaces about 10x10 for each space (including driving lanes, etc... so about 30,000 sq feet. assume about 3,000 sq feet per apartement (including ducts and hallways, etc) and you get 10 apartments per floor...

so, yeah...

[clevernonsense.livejournal.com]

10x10? So 33 parking spaces for Smart Cars and Vespas? :P

[lbmango.livejournal.com]

really? I figure a car is about 5x10 ft. isn't it? ok, evidently, I'm off by a factor of 2 on each dimension... so, say 20x20, or 60,000 sq ft, or 2-3 stories.

[tamalinn.livejournal.com]

aw, i figured you meant that each condo would be the size of a parking space, and i thought that was funny.

[lbmango.livejournal.com]

well, that's what I meant initially, but OP, rightly pointed out that taken out of context that could be used inapproriately...

I mean, it's lot like we live in Japan, where that is actually a possibility...

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

It's a possibility in London too. : D

[nathanjw]

The national standard for a non-compact parking space is 8x22 (176sf), but that's just the space for the car itself. When estimating total area for a multi-space parking lot, including access lanes and corners and so on, 300sf per space is a typical number to use.

[wndrhopp.livejournal.com]

Dont know lot size but 4 stories.

[talonvaki.livejournal.com]

They're not going to tear down the existing building, are they? They can't do that!

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

O.o No. Absolutely not. I don't even know what gave that impression.

moderator note - tagging

[ron_newman]

At the OP's request, I've added a vfw tag. If you click on it, you'll see several past discussions of this development proposal, along with information about how to rent the hall, and various events that have taken place there.

[maelithil.livejournal.com]

I too am wondering how the hell 31 units will fit on one third of that parking lot.

Also, I am kinda disappointed the current jungle in the vacant lot won't be tamed into a park/garden rather than getting developed. Alas.

[wndrhopp.livejournal.com]

Me too! An all Somerville use dog park would be awesome there I think.

[ron_newman]

Seems a shame to keep any of the surface parking lot instead of putting it all underground or in a structure.

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

I don't believe that the underground structure could be made big enough to accomodate that many extra spaces. Contact the developer to find out why they decided to do it this way.

[hikermtnbiker.livejournal.com]

Not sure if these are the most current but project plans and info is posted on the city web site here: http://www.somervillema.gov/Department.cfm?orgunit=PLANBD

Click on link under "Proposed Developments" and then scroll down to Summer St 343-351

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

Well, they probably are not since the address isn't even correct. As I said in the post, for the most current information, and to view (with your own eyes), the most current plans - contact the post commander directly and he will be happy to show them to you.

The purpose of this post was to avoid further misinformation from being disseminated, not to encourage it.

[hikermtnbiker.livejournal.com]

Who cares if the address is "correct". This is how the city is referencing the project. Since both the VFW and the developer have vested interests in this project I prefer to try to get my info independently. I am not inferring that they would not be truthful but they are biased. My intent was to provide information only. If the city is not current in their postings that is not my problem.

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

I'll defer to my commander on this.

I appreciate your care and concern and willingness to share any information you find on the matter.

[tsuki-no-bara.livejournal.com]

this may be a dumb question, but if the vfw is building a new building, what are they going to do with the current building when the new one is finished? are they planning to use both?

and i realize this is a question you probably can't answer, and i'm mostly asking out of curiosity because it seems kind of weird, but why would they lease the piece of parking lot to dakota development, and not just sell it outright?

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

No, the Developer will take possession of the old facility in a swap. The VFW does not own the entire Winter Hill Bank building, so the building, and the bank, will remain.

What the developer will do with the VFW's portion of it I'm not quite sure about. I had heard recently that it would be leased back to the bank, but Bobby's the one to talk to on that plan.

ETA: not a dumb question either. : )

Land swap

[buckturgidsen.livejournal.com]

Thanks for all the info, it's helpful. One thing I'm curious about -- I've reviewed the land swap papers a few times and it seems like the VFW is getting the short end of this deal. Maybe the OP can shed some light on this to help us understand.

Currently the VFW owns 2 prime parcels of CBD-zoned real estate. (CBD = central business district.) The developer owns a smaller, sketchier parcel of RA-zoned (residential) land with a pretty big eyesore (the red line vent shaft) in the front yard. The vent shaft site has been an albatross for the developer and they've been unable to get anything built there in almost 9 years of drama and acrimony.

As I understand it, the land swap deal calls for the developer to get the existing Dilboy post (half of the winter hill bank building) and the prime, street-facing half of the parking lot. These seem like far and away the most valuable pieces of the VFW's real estate. (Note that technically the piece of the parking lot where they're building the condos is still owned by VFW with a 100 year lease to the developer .... BUT the lease automatically renews, so de facto it seems like it belongs to the developer, not the VFW).

In return, the VFW is getting the smaller, less desirable shaft parcel and the developer is paying for the new VFW building. The VFW also gets a share of the proceeds of the sale of the existing post, but only if the sale is done within 2 years. So if the developer holds it for 25 months and then sells, then they don't share a dime with the VFW. And while the developer is paying for the building, they are also responsible for construction. There have been plenty of complaints from tenants of other buildings built by the Emerald/Dakota folks in the area -- it doesn't sound to me like they are known for high quality of work (just my opinion based on what I've heard from tenants in their buildings).

So if I'm the VFW, why do I agree to swap 2 prime parcels for 1 less-desirable parcel plus a building where I need to trust a developer with a bit of a checkered history to build it right? Perhaps the OP can answer that.

To be up front: I live on Summer Street and am happy to have the VFW as a neighbor. I vote there, I run in the MOMs race, and I think they do a lot of great things for veterans and for the community at large. I would hate to see them get screwed by an unscrupulous developer. Also, FWIW, like some other neighbors who have posted on the other thread, while I think it's high time that the VFW got a nice new building, I don't think the "function hall" aspect of the VFW belongs on an RA-zoned plot, especially since the VFW already owns a large CBD lot where they could build it. If the post members just wanted to build a private club for their own use and put it in RA, that would be okay with me; but this is much more than that: a 2-story entertainment complex with 2 bars that they plan to rent out to the public. By their own estimate, they host 170 events per year at the post and they plan to continue this. That just doesn't fit with the spirit or language of the RA zoning, the most restrictive residential classification in the city. So I'd call myself a friend and admirer of the VFW folks, but not supportive of this particular proposal.

one other thing

[buckturgidsen.livejournal.com]

Also, I just want to point out that all of this is just at the "plans and proposals" stage, nothing has been permitted yet. The developer and VFW still needs to go before a number of city boards, such as planning, zoning, and the liquor commission before anything can happen. Special permits have to be granted, etc.

There is a lot of opposition from neighbors and the aldermen to this project. There have been numerous neighborhood meetings and I have yet to hear a single person from the neighborhood speak out in favor of the proposal. As other neighbors have posted previously, I don't think anyone has a problem with the VFW folks. They are respected in the community, and for good reason. If they renovated their existing building, or constructed a new post on their parking lot, I don't think people would have an issue. Similarly, I don't think people would raise a fuss if they built a members-only private club (without the for-rent function hall) on the RA-zoned shaft site.

What neighbors have a problem with is the proposal to build what amounts to an entertainment facility with a function hall and 2 bars on a residential site surrounded on all 4 sides by homes. This is not some small private club, it can accommodate 100s of people, can serve alcohol until 1 am, and puts on (by their estimate) 170 events per year. We all enjoy living close to Davis Square with all of the dining and nightlife. But all of that is located within the confines of the 'central business district', where it belongs. Why build a facility like this on a residential-zoned plot surrounded by homes? And what homeowner would want that right next door when there are plenty of alternative, appropriately-zoned sites nearby (including two that the Dilboy already owns)?

Re: one other thing

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

I can't answer your questions. Please call the number given for Bob Hardy.

I can tell you that he told me that it's all approved and is moving forward.

Re: one other thing

[buckturgidsen.livejournal.com]

I think what Bob Hardy may have meant by "all approved" was that the Post and developer had agreed to do the land swap. The proposed development has not been approved by the city yet. The proposal goes in front of the planning board, zoning board of appeals, and liquor commission in October.

Re: one other thing

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

I would call him tomorrow for clarification. I don't want to put words in his mouth. As he said it to me, the city has approved of this. So, best to call yourself to find out what's meant by that. Again, I'm directing everyone to him at his request.

Re: one other thing

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

I just got clarification on at least one issue: There will only be one bar for the function hall (for the public to rent) and one for the members only. Not 2 function hall bars.

170 events includes polling place, Moms Race, city events, and others that do not necessarily involve the bar being open.

The concept that all events will run until 1am and involve alcohol is completely erroneous.

Re: one other thing

[buckturgidsen.livejournal.com]

I don't recall saying that every event would serve alcohol and run until 1am. The facts are:

* the Post has an all-forms liquor license with the ability to stay open until 1am.
* the new proposed building has a function hall with bar downstairs and a second bar upstairs (which would presumably be for members only)
* the Post has stated that they put on 170 events per year, and the city has suggested that this would make a reasonable limit on the number of events that they can host going forward.

So it appears that the Post would have the ability to host 170 events per year and would have the ability to serve alcohol at those events and stay open until 1am. That's certainly how the Post and developer have presented it at the various meetings and in front of the Liquor Commission.

By the way, if the Post started serving beer during election polling, I'd be all in favor of that! ;)

Re: one other thing

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

Those are the facts, yes, but the light in which you painted them in your initial post made it appear that the facts = bawdy revelry as a direct result of those facts. I was pointing out that 170 events does not equal booze served at every event; that 2 bars does not equal being open to the public as a nightclub complex; that 170 events are not all private and many are actually city sponsored or donated as community service. Unfortunately, the light in which the facts were initially presented can be read a negative one without the whole picture.

And I'm sure we'd have a spectacular turn out during election season if polling places served alcohol! : D

Timing?

[sungold123.livejournal.com]

Do you have any idea of the timing of this new construction in the parking lot? I'm having an event at the VFW in November, and I'd love to know if the entire parking lot will be available, or if I should advise attendees that they may have to find parking elsewhere in Davis Square.

Re: Timing?

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

You'll have the use of the parking lot in November. : )