nasty topic but...

[shava23.livejournal.com]

I'm having a bit of a dispute over this...  I live in a 100 year old triple decker, with aging plumbing infrastructure that's had to be fixed several times since I moved in.  A couple years ago the sewer backed up.  My landlord accused my teenage son of flushing the paper towels they found, but he knows better.  Workmen had been re-doing the 2nd floor unit's bathroom; they were my suspects.

Since the semi-finished part of the basement is in our unit, I lost LOTS of household stuff, but I considered it an act of God, and manned up, as it were.  Several people after told me that I should have sued the landlord or the painters.  I'm not a suing type.

My landlord was furious and scolding me today because he was saying that a stained ceiling in the basement, which eventually gave way with a 6" water rotted patch next to a pipe join, might have been from water from toilet overflows in the upstairs bath. 

Now, the toilet upstairs has overflowed a couple times a year since we moved in.  LL says, this is not normal and that I should have called him immediately each time for it to be snaked, although it responded to a normal household plunger.  When it overflowed, we used bathtowls for the bit of water/spooge and washed the towels with lots of borax.

We don't flush anything but biowaste and septic-safe recycled content TP.  No pads, no paper towels or whatever.  I think everyone in the house learned that by age 5, tyvm.

My question for the hivemind:  Is it abnormal for your toilet to overflow every so often?  Is the LL trying to pin something on me?  Should I hire my own plumber to look at the pipe leak to make sure it's not from what would be several pints of overflow every few months at most?

I have always loved old houses even with their quirks, and I haven't been around much of any households that didn't have a plunger in the bathroom very conveniently located for an emergency.  I've known some folks who have issues all the time (and they should probably get their plumbing checked or a new toilet or something, but hey).

I can't see that a couple pints every so often would soggy-rot the ceiling.  It would evaporate.  I just feel a little bullied.  My LL isn't a bad sort, but he gets temper-y and fixated.  I'm afraid that even if it's the pipe, he's going to rag me on it because of some feeling that if he doesn't bully me, I'll blame him.  Whatever...*sigh*

Comments

[ron_newman]

Not really an answer, but I managed to once cause such a problem for my downstairs neighbor -- not from a toilet, but from a refrigerator that I was manually defrosting. I've also had water several times come into my shower from the one upstairs, causing a need for ceiling repairs. Not sure if that was the shower-tub overflowing or the tenant carelessly failing to close the curtain. And this is in a solidly built 1929 brick apartment building.

[masswich.livejournal.com]

Its not all that normal to have toilet backup, unless you are - ahem- a prolific producer of flushables. If I were you, I'd take him up on his insistence to be called every time, and make him clean up the backed-up toilet.

In general it sounds like the plumbing in the building is not in very good shape (duh). Even if it is partially caused by your use of the plumbing its not sufficiently your fault to really give you the blame. Its also not productive for him to continually give you a hard time about it.

I'd just keep good records of what happens in case he tries to withhold security deposit or charge you for damages.

[koshmom.livejournal.com]

In my mind, a toilet overflowing more than once a year requires intervention of some sort. Especially if the source is not obvious (i.e. something other than the standard paper and other stuff down there, which you seem to be aware of). You've got old pipes that need to be upgraded to PVC, in my opinion. The issue is the natural "it's the tenant being foolish about putting something foreign down there" attitude of the landlord, which is understandable especially since it costs money to fix this.

Perhaps you should write a note to the LL each time it overflows, just a quick "toilet overflowed on January X, we cleaned it all up instantly" each time it happens, especially since it's a chronic condition. But mandatory each time some water gets on the floor? no. or else you'll have to report each time you step out of the shower.

[403.livejournal.com]

This.

Unless you also have ancient toilets, they shouldn't by-default overflow every time they back up, either. Every house and apartment I've lived in had toilets with a bowl large enough to hold a full tank's worth of water, just in case.

[m00n.livejournal.com]

Seconded. Unless the toilets are more than 30 years old or so, you should be able to flush them with the drain completely stopped up and not have any water go onto the floor. If you have toilets older than that, I think you have your other plumbing answers right there...

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

Thirded. Our home is about 100 year old too and the plumbing is awful - but even when our toilet backs up (more often than I'd like), it has never overflowed it's bowl.

I also agree that you should call the LL EVERY TIME your toilet backs up, even if it doesn't overflow.

In our last place, the upstairs tenants overflowed their toilet constantly. We called after the first occurrence and a plumber replaced part of a pipe. Turns out he missed a significant point - the rest of the pipe needed done too. X(

[avjudge]

Actually, I find ancient toilets more reliable than some (poorly-designed) modern ones. The 1920s toilets I grew up with (still in use) NEVER clogged or flooded. The 2000ish toilet - 1.6 gal., I think - in my first-floor bath here frequently clogs, enough that we have a household rule, "if it's solid, hold the handle until the flush is done" to send extra water down the drain to try to keep it clear. Fortunately since there's not a lot of water involved, clogs don't cause it to flood, so yours must be older. If it's backing up and flooding, I would think the clog must be due to build-up or an item lodged in the toilet drain or the drainpipes close to the toilet.

[talonvaki.livejournal.com]

Me, too. I've found that older toilets can handle about anything...but the fancy modern Japanese toilet installed in my new apartment's bathroom? That thing can barely manage to handle what a toilet was invented to handle.

And it's not even that pretty, either.

[hikermtnbiker.livejournal.com]

Sounds to me that you could have some kind of obstruction in the toilet perhaps, or in the toilet flange area. This can happen where something is small enough to let most stuff by most of the time but with a really full bowl it causes a problem. This has happened to me in my own and tenant's apartments before. All it takes is something falling off the back of the toilet or a young kid experimenting. In some cases the snake just kind of sneaks by it and did not clear it.

I have also had bad experiences with first generation low flow toilets that did not clear the siphon fully so that a second flush does not clear it so it backs up.

The size of the waste pipe relative to the toilet opening is such that it would be hard to imagine the waste line causing a problem, cast iron or PVC. Anything large enough to plug the toilet will flow right through the waste line. But stranger things have happened.

It is pretty easy to pull the toilet to check it out. Not that you should have to do this but if the LL is concerned then he should bite the bullet and have it checked out.

[treacle-well.livejournal.com]

I can't remember the last time I lived in a place where the toilet overflowed even once. One overflow I might just clean up myself and not notify the landlord. But a second occurrence--yeah, that's definitely a "tell the landlord" thing so the problem can be investigated and fixed.

[smammy]

(Either OP doesn't know what "spooge" means or has some very unusual toilet habits.)

[surrealestate.livejournal.com]

It's possible the occasional blocks are due to an issue in the toilet, such as degradation of the wax seal, that is causing further leakage you can't see. Personally, I wouldn't be inclined to contact a landlord over the occasional isolated incident of clogging, but overflowing is another matter, as others have mentioned. If I noticed a growing water stain on a ceiling, I'd definitely communicate that.

I'd also be more likely to mention minor things to a landlord I saw often than one who was off-site (like mine).

(A few weeks ago, I did contact our landlord because the of an issue with the toilet not flushing properly (but NOT overflowing!) that recurred twice even when the bowl had nothing but water. He came by and snaked it, couldn't find anything wrong, but the problem went away and it hasn't come back. He did say that if it does come back, he'll bring in a plumber to remove the toilet and check out the seal.)

[lac.livejournal.com]

I live in a 3 family and our plumber is older than Moses...really. We do have the toilet overflow every so often (an issue that the landlord and son are aware of) and it has not caused any issues downstairs. But we also catch it before does any real overflowing. Our issue is the tub which will now back up every few months. We'd tried to take care of it ourselves but the last time, it responded to nothing...not even my pleading and begging. And this was a KNOWN issue (even though they tried to pretend it wasn't). The LL did get someone in to snake the drain, and now...we tell them when something happens. It's their job to take care of it and now, we let them.

So, my advice is to tell him when it happens again. I don't think he should chastise you but I think for your peace of mind and to make sure that nothing ugly happens between you all, go with telling him and let him take care of it.

[muffyjo]

Have you considered putting that blue stuff in the toilet? If it's really the toilet, you'll have an answer very quickly.

[shava23.livejournal.com]

I'm really against putting too many toxics into the water supply.

[muffyjo]

I understand the sentiment but it would only take one month, or less. You might see if there is an organic alternative that would produce color like that that would sit in the watercloset part of the commode It beats trying to remember to put food dye in every time you flush and would really point out the problem as...a problem or not.

Or, if you have to, get some beet juice and pour that in the commode for a week or so when you use it. That should do the trick. Really, the thing that's important is something of color that would show up if it's really the commode not the tub.

[clevernonsense.livejournal.com]

if it's general water damage, could it be from the shower-related steam/humidity? I've been in bathrooms with very poor ventilation where various bits would rot away.

[olszowka.livejournal.com]

I want to reiterate the point made by m00n. Many toilets occasionally clog, but it is very rare that they overflow. In my experience between the size of the bowl compared to the tank and the clog not being 100%, you should not be having overflows. If you are, something should be repaired.

One technique I've used for temperamental toilets is to flush the human waste and then use the paper and flush the paper waste in a subsequent flush.

[shava23.livejournal.com]

That is a good suggestion for um heavy use situations...;)

[vonelftinhaus.livejournal.com]

Your landlord should just install a new toilet in your unit and until then shut his mouth. As a homeowner I know I always risk possible damage from-who-knows-what but unless something is new it might break.

Tenants rights

[somervillema311.livejournal.com]

Hi there, I see that most of the responses you've been getting are more about toilet overflow and not so much on how to handle this dispute with your landlord.
Here is a link to the City of Somerville's Housing Division. http://www.somervillema.gov/section.cfm?org=housing&page=662

Contact them via email or phone, they would be able to advise you on your rights as a tenant in this messy situation. (bad pun intended.)

I hope this helps.

Jesse

Re: Tenants rights

[shava23.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much! Somerville 311 rocks! :) But I'm not expecting this to get to the point of a formal dispute. We are reasonable people once things cool down... But I will keep that in mind, also have a friend who's a tenant rights lawyer (Joe Ross) but I hate to bother him with this.

Re: Tenants rights

[eredien]

City of Somerville's Housing Inspection Department is awesome. :) I really recommend them when you are having landlord problems. Sometimes just getting that notarized official looking list of problems from the city clears up issues your landlord has been "going to fix soon now" for years, without actually any formal dispute...

[davelew.livejournal.com]

You shouldn't feel bullied by your landlord. Your landlord is your employee, whom you pay to deal with issues like this.

I would suggest reading up on tenants' rights. The Somerville website is a good place to start. You can also try calling the Massachusetts Consumer Protection Hotline (617-973-8787), or reading the laws governing tenant/landlord interactions (I would start with Mass General Laws chapter 186: http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartII/TitleI/Chapter186 ) to see what your rights are around your security deposit and your landlord's obligations.

[on-reserve.livejournal.com]

Your landlord sounds like my old landlord (who owned several properties). He would wait until it was dire to fix anything and then try to find a way to pin it on me.

[sparkgrrl658.livejournal.com]

same as mine too. of course, this was in allston, and it was my first apartment so i didn't know any better, but yeah. we had TONS of plumbing issues and they were all somehow our fault. including a front bathroom with a toilet that constantly overflowed even when we got to the point of not even putting toilet paper in it. the "plumber" was in there every week and finally told us it was unusable unless he was going to replace it and deal with the pipes. of course, he was not.

[darxus.livejournal.com]

Toilet overflowing only happens when you flush a clogged toilet multiple times.

Had that problem with my ex-girlfriend's son. Solution: Do not flush a toilet again if doing so will cause it to overflow. Get out the plunger first, and get the water level down before flushing again.

[shava23.livejournal.com]

Come to think of it, usually there has been overflow from other folks, and then I put in elbow grease and it just clears. I will gather a house meeting and do a plunger protocol training... Heh.

Sadly, in my household, I am the handy person, and I'm much better with bits than atoms.