Roche Bros. grocery proposed for 240 Elm Street; Meeting September 10

[ron_newman]

According to a Facebook post from Alderman-at-Large Jack Connolly, Roche Bros. proposes to open a grocery store in the former Social Security Building, 240 Elm Street. They will hold an on-site meeting to discuss this on Wednesday, September 10 at 6 pm.

Roche Bros. is a local family-owned supermarket chain whose current locations are mostly in the beyond-128 suburbs. They are now building their first urban store in the former Filene's Basement space in Downtown Crossing.

I really hope this happens. I think it suits Davis Square's needs better than the previous World of Beer and Beer Works proposals.

ETA: Based on the illustration that Jack provided, what they actually seem to be proposing is a new sub-brand of smaller Roche stores called "Brothers Marketplace", whose first location opened in Weston a few months ago. Their Facebook page is more informative than their rather skeletal website.

Comments

[tikva.livejournal.com]

Years ago I lived in Quincy and was very impressed with the Roche Brothers there. It'd be neat to have one in Davis. But I hope they have a good traffic/parking plan, because yipes!

[ron_newman]

I don't expect it to have or need any parking in this location (nor, for that matter, at Filene's downtown).

[srakkt.livejournal.com]

I was just having this sort of conversation over lunch, with the consensus at the time being that it's silly to plan parking for new development in heavily urbanized environments (like Davis) where we're actively trying to decrease reliance upon POVs.

JP has a bigger problem in that regard than we do, I think, but IANAUP (I am not an urban planner)

[ifotismeni]

wow, that's an interesting idea to be sure.

[ron_newman]

Have you been to the Brothers Marketplace in Weston? That seems to be the model for what they are proposing here, based on the illustration that Jack provided. (I haven't been there.)

[ifotismeni]

nope, i am never in weston

[smacaski.livejournal.com]

My mom shops at a Roche Bros. nearish her home--she much prefers it to Shaw's and Stop&Shop, both of which are closer to her. The prices and quality (particularly of the produce) are both superior. So, I'd be pleased if a Roche opened up around here.

I expect they're assuming that many customers would have their own carts and/or use buses to carry things home, and wouldn't need much parking. I'm not sure how likely that would be--it'd be true for me, but I'm not buying an entire family's worth of groceries each week.

[wintahill.livejournal.com]

Hopefully, something finally goes in there. An empty space like that in the heart of the square for so many years is just a huge waste of real estate.

I like Roche Brothers stores alot and it would be nice to have one in town that is more easily accessible to those without a car.

That being said where is the typical Davis Sq Livejournal outrage on this proposal? A chain grocery store opening up basically across the street from McKinnon's, an independent local business with a very similar product mix. All I hear is crickets……

[ron_newman]

Will it really be competition for McKinnon's, though? I see it more as competition for Pemberton Farms and Dave's Fresh Pasta.

Rather than competition, complementary.

[srakkt.livejournal.com]

Farmer's Bounty was so awesome precisely because they offered produce and grocery to complement McKinnon's meat and deli offerings.

Their absence has really left a gap in terms of how much of one's actual grocery shopping one can get done on foot in the square.

Completely unrelatedly: anybody else remember their Sunday Morning Special? That was fantastic.

Agreed!

[miss-chance.livejournal.com]

I used to do all my perishable shopping between McKinnon's and early Farmer's Bounty (when they used to sell organic produce, before they got beer and wine). Roche Brother's would pick up that area for everyone. I'll try to make the meeting.

RE: Rather than competition, complementary.

[unferth.livejournal.com]

McKinnon's produce has improved considerably - it's still not a massive set of options, but the quality is way up from what I remember around 2008-2009. Now it's up to acceptable levels, at least for me.

RE: Rather than competition, complementary.

[srakkt.livejournal.com]

I don't disagree at all, but I think that the reason they've done so is because the decline and subsequent disappearance of Farmer's Bounty.

RE: Rather than competition, complementary.

[wintahill.livejournal.com]

I do not disagree with you guys and I do not think that concerns about McKinnon's or Dave's for that matter should be a reason to oppose a Roche Brothers going into the space. I like both of those businesses a lot and I want them to continue to exist in Davis. I am honestly happy that it looks like we might finally have a prospective tenant who will fill this long vacant space.

My comment about crickets was more directed at the many people in this community that where adamant and vocal in their opposition to the previous beer related proposals for this same location. Myself and some other posters were essentially called delusional when we suggested that much of the concerns raised about the the prior proposals were being exaggerated and were being applied very selectively, with the intent to ultimately drive away a totally viable new business looking to come to our city. It was very obvious then as it is now, that many people who said they are opposed to chains coming to the square can quite easily champion a chain business as long as it is place they would personally like to have in that location. Concerns about the health of existing local business who might face increased competition can easily be explained away. Liquor licenses that were supposedly only available for under-served areas of the city, because Davis is doing just fine already and it has too many establishment serving liquor as it is can suddenly have the restrictions on them removed. I could go on and on here. All of this just reinforces what I have been saying all along, a small group of residents stirred up by Alderman Gewirtz, used many dubious arguments to essentially drive away two prospective tenants from a long vacant building. They used these PC arguments, to hide their true motive which was from the beginning to drive a business they personally did like away. They succeeded and many here applauded them, I on the other hand was disgusted.

Dirty politics is just as distasteful when "your side" wins. I want no part of that in my community. Lets all hope that this time all parties involved can behave in a more rational manner.

RE: Rather than competition, complementary.

[ron_newman]

All along, some of those folks were just saying "We don't need another bar; what we need is a grocery store." Now that we are (I hope) getting one, let's support it.

Re: Rather than competition, complementary.

[thespian.livejournal.com]

what Ron's saying. I said, about a week after the clossing of the SSI Office, that what I'd really love to see in there would be a Trader Joe's. All the other Trader Joe's around here are a pain to get to on transit if you live in Davis (at the time, I was in Porter, I admit).

I have no problem with chains. But yet another pub....not so much.

RE: Re: Rather than competition, complementary.

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

I agree, we have enough bars. Groceries are what's needed, and Roche is a wonderful chain.

RE: Rather than competition, complementary.

[srakkt.livejournal.com]

I was out of the area when the Beer Works proposals were being made; for my own part, I am of the opinion that we don't want to just approve all businesses - because Davis is a location where any business can do well, we ought to be looking at ways in which we can diversify the sorts of businesses we've got.
To that end, I think Yet Another Bar is just as bad as Yet Another Froyo Place or Yet Another Burrito Place - all of the arguments we've heard over and over again for the last fifteen years.
So while, yes, Beer Works would have done well, so will nearly anything that goes into that space. Nothing has, not because of community opposition, but because the landlord refuses to actually repair or maintain that property.
I can't speak to the involvement of any aldermen, and I wouldn't even claim that there are sides to the issue. We all want to live somewhere great. Getting people in a community involved in these decisions isn't dirty politics. It's the way politics is *supposed* to happen.

RE: Rather than competition, complementary.

[teko.livejournal.com]

I was at the Beer Works meetings and came away very split. On the one hand, what Beer Works was proposing would be a huge, much-needed aesthetic upgrade to that building and would raise the bar of how Davis Square could look. It was classy, respectful, and had good ideas behind it. And given that the other option at the time was a crappy-looking 'mini mall' of a smoke shop, massage place, and Burger King, I was all for it. On the other hand, well... it's a Beer Works.

I disagree with the way Alderman Gewirtz personally handled the situation, but if it has a positive outcome, at least we avoided the worst case scenario.

RE: Rather than competition, complementary.

[wintahill.livejournal.com]

I am mostly in agreement with you. There certainly is a need for community meetings around proposed new developments where the public can air their concerns and ask questions. The local alderman should definitely be involved in organizing and publicizing these types of meetings. My problem is when the processes is essentially hijacked and used to push a very narrow minded personal agenda. These meetings are supposed encourage discussion and compromise, not to be used to drive away "undesirable" new businesses. While some here may see the concerns over parking and deliveries to this new potential Roche Brothers store as "trivial", these are the types of things that should be discussed at a community meeting. Myself and many others feel that similar "trivial" issues were hyped up and used purposefully as roadblocks to ultimately derail a mostly harmless business proposal that would fill a long vacant space. At that time there was no valid grocery store proposal on the table at all, it was just speculation at best. I support the Roche Brothers proposal just as I did the previous proposals, I want to see a viable business open in that long empty space this year not maybe a few years from now.

As far as my comment on dirty politics, need I remind you of the VFW Hall/condo development circus that was discussed in great detail here several years ago. It was very informative and it really opened my eyes. Whether you were for or against that proposal, you must agree that Alderman Gewirtzs' little end run around the process to get the MBTA vent parcel rezoned was clearly not what someone negotiating in good faith would do. After months of litigation and numerous compromises by the developer the project was explicitly approved by the city. She could not deal with that apparently and used her influence to kill it be any means necessary after her other attempts ultimately failed. This greatly shapes my opinion that alderman Gewirtz was never negotiating in good faith on residents behalf to make an acceptable compromise on the World of Beer/BeerWorks proposals. She wanted those projects stopped and she succeeded by abusing the valid political process for community involvement. That is what I find distasteful and what I mean by dirty politics.

RE: Rather than competition, complementary.

[teko.livejournal.com]

I completely agree that the way Alderman Gerwirtz handled both proposals was surprisingly dishonest.

My experience with these community meetings is that the moderators seem unable to make them very productive; they tend to get mired in minutae. One person after another will bring up issues that the folks proposing a business had already answered: "Yes, but will there be TV's showing sports?"

I feel like people who are in the business of having products delivered to their store on a daily basis probably have a pretty good handle on the feasibility of food delivery, so I hope they can simply give a decisive answer rather than issues like that taking up most of the time.

[teko.livejournal.com]

From the Facebook page, their Brothers Markets remind me very much of upscale marketplaces like Bees Knees or, well, Dave's Fresh Pasta, but with lots of fresh produce and local goods. I don't think this would compete with McKinnon's at all, but it'd definitely fight with Dave's. I think it'd be great to have it in the square, though.

On site?

[miss-chance.livejournal.com]

Does on-site mtg mean at the Social Security building?

Re: On site?

[ron_newman]

Yes, that is what I meant.

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

This is so cool!

Fantastic news!

[scott gunther (from livejournal.com)]

This is wonderful. More than anything, we need a grocery store. We already have 10 thousand hair salons, frozen yogurt spots, pubs and banks. This is the main thing that's missing.

Re: Fantastic news!

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

interesting perspective, in re hair salons. Never noticed that one.

[bercilakslady.livejournal.com]

I'm all for having a grocery store within easy walking distance of home, and when I lived near a Roche Bros a few years ago, I quite liked their selections.

Delivery Truck Routes

[sheldonave.livejournal.com]

As a resident of Holland St, I would be okay with this IF they use Day, Herbert and Chester Streets for deliveries. Think this will happen?

Re: Delivery Truck Routes

[ron_newman]

As a resident of Day Street, I'm a bit concerned about the deteriorating pavement quality of my street. Though I'm willing to trade that off for better access to groceries (we already have the farmers' market trucks using our streets).

RE: Re: Delivery Truck Routes

[sheldonave.livejournal.com]

Holland Street residents would be happy if others would share the burden.

Delivery truck traffic on Holland Street has become almost unbearable the last few years. The street is full of potholes and the trucks seem to get bigger and deliver at all times of the day. Cambridge has shut down all feeder street access from Mass Ave including Beech St, so even trucks that delivery at the Porter Star Market arrive via Holland.

Somerville needs to set up some kind of delivery truck task force to work with the business community and set limits on the size of trucks along with delivery routes and times.

RE: Delivery Truck Routes

[laryu.livejournal.com]

I'll be very interested to hear about plans for deliveries. There doesn't seem to be any way Chester and Herbert could support deliveries of level needed to keep a grocery stocked.

Re: Delivery Truck Routes

[ron_newman]

There's a small parking lot behind the building, accessed from Chester Street. It would make sense to put loading docks there, rather than on Chester Street itself.

RE: Re: Delivery Truck Routes

[laryu.livejournal.com]

I'm aware of the lot, but it's difficult to access for trucks. The trucks that already use that lot drive onto the sidewalk on Herbert St. in order to back up down the alley. When there are cars parked too close to the corner of Chester and Herbert, or when there are snow piles on the ground on Chester, trucks have a hard time making the right turn from Chester to Herbert, before they can even try to back up. That's not sustainable for regular deliveries of groceries.

Re: Re: Delivery Truck Routes

[ron_newman]

I'm surprised any trucks at all are using the lot now -- are they delivering to Dunkin Donuts? The rest of the building is vacant.

[bluesauce.livejournal.com]

So I assume Alderman Gewirtz isn't going to coming clutching pearls and crying for people to oppose THIS, even though it's part of a chain?

[ron_newman]

Rightly or wrongly, people react differently to locally-based chains (Boloco, JP Licks, Anna's Tacqueria, Market Basket, Roche Bros, even huge Dunkin Donuts) than to national ones.

[bluesauce.livejournal.com]

So that's a no then, and she's gonna keep riding the hypocritical high horse. Cool, good to know.

[ron_newman]

Please do not expect me to speak for the Ward 6 alderman. I'm only reporting what I hear from people generally around here (and to some extent, my own thoughts).

[maelithil.livejournal.com]

I have never particularly shared the concern about the lack of grocery options in Davis since Pemberton's is not exactly a trek and is a wonderful store. I guess I should now hope that the newcomers don't undercut the competition, given that Roche Brothers IS a successful chain.

[zmook.livejournal.com]

From my perspective near Ball Square, another grocery in the area is awesome, but it has to compete with Star or there's not much point. Dave's already too expensive for anything but the occasional treat, and I've never even considered Pemberton's (which is farther away than any of them, and -- is it even a grocery? I've always assumed it was a yuppie deli with lots of artisanal mustard, but maybe I've been wrong).

[ron_newman]

Pemberton is certainly a grocery, as in a place where you can buy produce and meat and packaged goods. (Also, beer and wine.)

[jdh0625.livejournal.com]

I live right in Ball Sq. According to Google Maps walking directions, Pemberton Farms is two minutes farther than Star.

It's as expensive as you assume, though.

When it comes to grocery stores, I just wish Market Basket would get back on track...

[3rdragon]

The one time I shopped at Pemberton's (for groceries; I've bought plants there more than once), it seemed upscale, but didn't actually have most of the upscale-grocery sorts of things that I was looking for, and while the produce was nice, the other normal-grocery things were more expensive than some of my other options, and it's less convenient for me than other places that do sell my upscale groceries, so I haven't been back. But I probably buy an unusual range of groceries.

[fefie.livejournal.com]

This is great news! The square could use a small grocery like this.

[wkathym.livejournal.com]

I am all for Roche Bros coming in. I think they will offer a unique mix of produce, meat, cheese and prepared foods not offered by either McKinnon's and Dave's. I an hoping/thinking that Dave's will not be overtly affected -- they are more of a specialty market, and their sandwiches cannot be beat. Don't understand why many think that McKinnon's would be overtly affected, as they mostly sell lo-cost meat (standard, not choice grade) and has a rather small selection of produce. Sounds like the new market will be more like Pemberton's, which I think would be great.