A concern regarding a previous post

[molyflogs.livejournal.com]

Please, forgive me if this is out of line, and by all means, feel free to delete it or ask me to. I'm really not sure if this is appropriate or not, so I'm going for it and hoping for the best.

A couple of days ago, I posted to the community offering a few coupons and a sample of infant formula that I got in the mail, but do not want. I know and understand that breast feeding is a hot button issue with a few people, and I expected a little discussion. That's fine and good.

What I did NOT expect was four separate PMs from people essentially telling me that I am an awful person for offering to give these things to people, rather than throwing them away. Well, one of them wasn't quite so... vicious, and instead URGED me to just throw them away, but in the others, I was called everything from a "formula company shill" to an "anti-feminist" to "a person who clearly finds no value in the bond between a mother and her baby."

Come on, people. I'm nothing more than a woman who is 38 weeks pregnant, received something in the mail I thought someone else might find some value in, and thought I'd do something nice by offering to pass it on to someone who might need or want it. I really DO appreciate those of you who sent me supportive messages, offering lactation consulting or referral to such a service, should I need it. I, however, think it's pretty out of line for people to jump down my throat over what was nothing more than what I thought was a nice freebie to someone who wanted it, given that I did not have any use for it.

I'm sorry if my posting the other day offended anyone. It wasn't my intention. That said, some of the responses I received were wholly out of line, and I urge you to think about what you're actually saying to someone, in the context in which is it being said before you jump down their throats and make them feel like they're doing something wrong over something as small as some coupons.

Comments

[icecreamempress.livejournal.com]

Not everyone with a newborn child is even a woman.

[icecreamempress.livejournal.com]

By which I mean, the children who are my genetic descendants were raised by two dads from birth.

[surrealestate.livejournal.com]

Wow, I'm so sorry you got those awful messages! I received many samples and coupons as well. I mailed the coupons to friends who could use them and gave the samples to a local woman who collects them for fostered infants.

My baby hasn't had a drop of formula in his life so far, but if he ever needs supplementation, we have several options for donated breast milk.

I guess that makes me both a "most strident breastfeeder" AND a formula company shill! Oookay.

Well, it's always comforting to know that people are acting like asshats on *all* sides.

[molyflogs.livejournal.com]

I think what upset me the most is that people seriously believe that it is their business what someone else chooses to feed their infant. I don't care what folks do. I know and understand that breastfeeding is the best option, and I have every intention of doing so. I think I have a lifetime supply of the stuff already. These puppies are enormous! But what about women who either can't breastfeed or simply choose not to? Someone is not a horrible person because they don't want to breastfeed, and my heart is breaking a little because I think that if they say so in public, they're going to get jumped on even worse than I did for merely offering coupons. :(

[surrealestate.livejournal.com]

It almost makes me wonder if those people got your username confused with the person who started the wildly inappropriate behavior by helpfully informing you that you would fail. I mean, it was practically a caricature of the booby traps (http://www.bestforbabes.org/what-are-the-booby-traps), and I can sort of imagine being sufficiently upset by it to misclick.

So many of my friends in other parts of the country talk about the looks and rude comments they get from people when they nurse in public, and I'm glad I haven't experienced that around here, but it's obnoxious to accost people on the street (or on LJ, for that matter) about their irrelevant-to-you behavior no matter what it is, really. I'm not sure if I've just been very lucky or very oblivious.

[thespian.livejournal.com]

I didnt say that she would fail, by any means. But she said that she was sure she wouldnt need them, though not having breastfed yet and if turned out not to work once the infant was in her arms, she might want the $20 in coupons and the $8 half size sample.

molyflogs seemed to take my advice as it was meant, mostly as the local gets sort of insane for a deal person bringing it up.

I did, sadly, comment that strident breastfeeders (and I dont consider you strident, since you are not making that decision for other people) were around, and I am sad that any of them bothered her, since it *was* a nice thought to share locally, Ive just seen too many of our friends struggle with this to feel that any mother, pre-birth, can be a zillion percent sure that theyll be able to breastfeed.

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

As a failed BFer who really saw no need for the formula or coupons, I thought the same when I saw the OP, but it certainly didn't occur to me to offer the, "Hey, I failed, you might too, hang on to 'em," speech. To each their own and it was a great gesture.

[canongrrl.livejournal.com]

It's an odd world. Thankfully, outside of the internets, people tend to respect (at least in public) what a person does or does not do. It's amazing how a little anonymity changes people.

In any case, people who got worked up enough to send you PMs really do need to get a life.

With that, enjoy your baby! s/he will be wonderful and amazing and every day will be a new adventure/experience (note I didn't say every day will be good ;-)

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

Well, there seems to be enough evidence about immune benefits from breastfeeding, that if someone doesn't want to bf for cosmetic or light convenience reasons, say, then some social opprobrium may be appropriate. There's a whole gradient of "is it society's business" from "what do you name the kid" to "do you seek medical care when the child is sick" to "do you even feed and clean the child".

And of course, in the recent past corporate society made it its business to push formula as a mark of Progress! and Science! where it wasn't needed, and a lot of people are still reacting to that, I think.

Of course, if all one knows is that X is using formula, one doesn't know if that's because X couldn't bf adequately, or X would lose her job by doing so, or because X thought it'd be too messy and troublesome, so people shouldn't go judging X.

[intuition-ist.livejournal.com]

given how much of a PITA being a parent seems to be, I say: breastfeed if you wanna, don't if you don't, and ignore the folks who give unwanted advice.

[molyflogs.livejournal.com]

That's how I feel about it. I look forward to breastfeeding, but if, for whatever reason, I can't do it, I really dare someone to mess with me about it. Something tells me that harping to a new parent of a newborn is about as smart as poking an MBTA bus driver.

[maelithil.livejournal.com]

See, I support a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body. And that includes whether or not she decides to breastfeed, even if it's because of, in your opinion, "light convenience reasons". As long as the kid gets fed, she's all good.

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

The advent of formula significantly decreased infant mortality rates when it was made affordable. As an adopted child, I'm grateful for it. As a mother who in spite of trying her hardest and failed to BF my own daughter, I'm grateful for it.

People like you (and worse) do make me want to kick bunnies though. It doesn't matter why someone can't or doesn't want to breastfeed. Ever. No social opporbium is appropriate when the child is nourished and well fed and cared for.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

Even if there's good evidence that the formula child is *not* as well cared for as the breast-fed one, where breast-feeding is a feasible option? Not as healthy, not as smart, longer lasting illnesses, etc.?

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

You're talking to an exclusively formula fed (former) child who taught herself to read at age 2 (if my mother is to be believed); who never suffered any lasting illness outside of the common flu and occasional ear infection as a child. This was before formula was re-formulated to include the same DHA found in breast milk that's attributed to healthy brain development.

My husband, also formula fed in that same era, could have gone to MIT if he'd chosen to. He chose a different path but strangely, enjoys buying textbooks - and reading them for fun - on theoretical physics.

I'm now the mother of a child who breastfed for only a month and was exclusively formula fed after I failed, who is now just turned 3 and communicates verbally at a first grader's level; who is able to express herself artistically at that same level; who creates intricate stories and acts them out far surpassing her peers imaginative play; and who, BTW, is healthy as a horse and has been her entire short life so far.


Whatever "evidence" you're citing I would love to see as I see no daily evidence of this in our own lives or those of her formula fed friends. So, wrong argument. Try again.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

Wikipedia has the references for studies. I'm sure you know that anecdotes aren't data.

[molyflogs.livejournal.com]

Oh, for fuck's sake. Stop trying to make people feel guilty for feeding their children how they choose to. It's seriously, SERIOUSLY none of your damn business.

[mindstalk.livejournal.com]

Is it none of our damn business whether parents vaccinate their children?

The difference between bf and formula is a lot less than the difference between vaccination and not, but there does seem to be a measurable difference on a population level.

[molyflogs.livejournal.com]

That's just a stupid statement. Your kid isn't at any level of risk whatsoever if I feed my kid formula.

[ron_newman]

What a totally ridiculous comparison to make. Vaccination is important because failure to vaccinate causes epidemics.

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

And I'm sure you know that Wikipedia isn't exactly the source to go to when looking for statistically significant facts.

[incandes-flower.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this comment. I was one of the people who said they would like the coupons. I intended to breastfeed, but my son did not latch and he had trouble gaining weight. I exclusively pumped for quite a while, but never made enough milk so I had to supplement. Unfortunately, I also have chronic illness and ended up having to stop making milk because I needed to take meds to take care of myself. Anyway, to make a long story short, how you feed your baby is subject to many, many factors and it isn't anyone else's business what you do. I'm so sorry that people treated you that way. It seems that mother's can win. I know women who have been judged for nursing in public and those who have been judged for bottle feeding (formula or breastmilk). I wish people could just be kind and supportive to one another.

[incandes-flower.livejournal.com]

Er, mothers can't win. I really should proof read before I post. :)

[pekmez.livejournal.com]

I'm still hanging onto the can of formula I bought during an episode of similar troubles, 8 months ago already. I exclusively pumped, didn't have to feed him the formula in the end, and in my case things got better, he got willing to latch again, and is now a giant. But he's not yet 1 and if my milk suddenly vanished overnight he'd not be able to make do with cow's milk just yet, and I'm not yet over the whole episode enough to just get rid of it.
It won't expire for a month or two after his birthday...

[gingicat]

Good heavens.

I was unable to nurse my first child due to surgery I had in my early twenties, and was able to nurse my second child due to her determination and relentlessness, not mine. And all of the BF-ers who told me not to supplement caused me to nearly starve her.

And not one of the One True Wayists really listened to me. I got awesome support from friends, thankfully.

[thespian.livejournal.com]

you (and someone else we know who Im not outing but Im sure you know) were the two cases I hinted at a little where it was breaking your hearts not to breastfeed, and people just kept harping at you. I remember how hard it was to see you going through that).

[rmd.livejournal.com]

wow. i am so sorry you got a pile of stupid sprayed on you from, evidently, all sides.

[cos]

I think this post is appropriate, and your last post was as well, and I'm sorry you got those messages.

[samus-aran.livejournal.com]

Seconded.

[pklemica]

Thirded. You get mega-bonus points in my book, molyflogs, for this measured and mature reply. I'd not have been nearly so articulate or sane-sounding if it were me getting such 'advice'.

Congrats, btw, on the baby! I wish your family much health and happiness :)

[badseed1980.livejournal.com]

It's stuff like this that makes me think I'm going to have to cultivate a whole lot of "fuck you" and save it up for when I have kids, because everyone is going to tell me I'm doing it wrong, no matter what I do. Oy vey. Sorry you had to deal with that crap. :(

[ifotismeni]

that's awful. i am really sorry that happened!

[veek.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, the assholes come out in droves on issues like this. I'm sorry you had to endure it. I think that your response here is both called for, and well executed.

[medyani.livejournal.com]

This.

moderator note

[ron_newman]

I don't see anything wrong with your original post, nor with this one. All you wanted to do was give away something that you did not need. You didn't ask for advice on whether to breastfeed or not, and I wish people hadn't responded with such, either on LJ or in private messages to you.

[thespian.livejournal.com]

I dont think my not-commenting would have helped (in that I think they were bound and determined to do what they have decided is Right For All People), but if my response *did* set off any of the more strident types who felt I might cause you to become a lost one and caused you more grief, that I am absolutely sorry for.

[etain.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry--that sucks.

[jadelennox]

I'm so sorry that happened. People get weird (in all directions) about breast-feeding, but you were just trying to do something nice for people who might have different needs from you and it should not have been an opportunity for other people to further politics in your face. Keep being nice; don't be discouraged.

[shana-lyons.livejournal.com]

Think about it this way: At least you know which four parents to avoid on the playground. :)

I don't think you should feel the need to apologize at all. Your post was not remotely offensive. You were trying to help some mom or dad out. I have no idea what it is about being pregnant/having kids that makes everyone think you care about their opinion, but god, they do. If it's any consolation, people are much more polite in real life.

Congrats and good luck with your munchkin!

[kpht.livejournal.com]

Holy goddamn craphole, what a bunch of turds.

I struggle every month to pay for formula for my 7 month old, and I'd have gladly taken it if I was at all close to you. I would LOVE to know who said to throw them out, because I would like to punch that person in the face. There are a lot of broke people out there just trying to make ends meet.

I can't breastfeed this child because I had a series of emergency surgeries when he was a month old, and because I was knocked out and in the hospital away from him for like 4 days over the course of a month, my supply tanked and I had no choice but to formula feed. I really had a great time breastfeeding my first until 17 months when I was pregnant again.

I would love to know who said these things only to call them out on it. Who the hell has time to be up in someone else's grill in the first place? Dang.

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

THIS THIS THIS.

I fully intended and expected to exclusively breastfeed but failed - and my lactation consultants all agreed that it wasn't through lack of trying or doing the right thing. I WISH someone had been giving away this stuff at that time.

Also, to all of those POS's who said this stuff to the OP - INFANTS WHO ARE ADOPTED ARE FORMULA FED. OMG this makes me so angry. I'm so sick of this nazi debate. So. Sick. Of. It.

[surrealestate.livejournal.com]

What makes me angriest about molyflogs receiving those nastygrams is that she'd already said she was planning to EBF! Really, there are people have nothing better to do than attack a person who plans to do EXACTLY what the sender wants them to be doing??? It seems like that sort of behavior is more likely to make someone go against you than cause anything good to happen.

While I do think that the samples and such that the formula companies send out result in greater use of formula than if they didn't send 'em (which is why they do it, of course) and I don't support the unsolicited mail, I don't actually believe that offering to give them away has any negative impact since in that case, the people who take them were already planning to use it. I think of it as a positive since it's that many fewer dollars someone is giving the companies. The potential harm is when formula is pushed on people who *didn't* want it, not when it goes to those who need it. Big f'in difference.

I did, btw, keep one of the small cans as a mental comfort of sorts, but I haven't used it. It's up to each individual to decide whether having it around is more likely to help or hinder their goals, because it definitely varies. I think the private nastygrams were wholly inappropriate but I think telling the OP that she shouldn't figure on being able to EBF successfully was also inappropriate. I know there was no negative intent in the latter sentiment, but comments like that can really affect a person's confidence which in turn can make a difference in what actually happens. (And besides, if you've only received one of those sample packages, there are still plenty more coming!)

[spacehawk.livejournal.com]

This.

[bombardiette.livejournal.com]

What makes me angriest about molyflogs receiving those nastygrams is that she'd already said she was planning to EBF! Really, there are people have nothing better to do than attack a person who plans to do EXACTLY what the sender wants them to be doing??? It seems like that sort of behavior is more likely to make someone go against you than cause anything good to happen.

And this is exactly why I call it a nazi debate. It wasn't enough that the OP was planning to EBF - but she was encouraging others (in the minds of these detractors) to NOT EBF and therefore, must be brought back in line to go with the rest of the group-think.

[cfox.livejournal.com]

I breastfed both my sons, but when the second was eight months old or so, I bought a can of formula, because my pumping output was declining, and I found it unpleasant to worry about how much I pumped at each session.

It turned out that the feeling of abundance I had, from knowing that can of formula was sitting there in the pantry for my baby to drink if he suddenly had a hungry day, was just the thing to make pumping easier. For me, it seems, nothing dries up my milk faster than fretting about it.

He ended up drinking a little formula a few days per week, between 10 and 16 months of age, but is still nursing at 22 months. I'm sure he could have been exclusively breastfed like his brother was, but I decided that I didn't want to pump any more.

(I also support any mother's right to feed her baby formula for any reason, but the assumption that formula is always detrimental to breast feeding strikes me as particularly demeaning.)

[darlucky.livejournal.com]

Wow that's amazing that this happened. Our pediatrician (very wisely) advised us to keep some formula on hand in the first few weeks even though our baby was breastfeeding "just in case." Well wouldn't you know it, one night she was just so hungry that she exhausted the milk supply, and she wanted more, and had a few ounces of formula. I'm glad we had it, and we still keep an emergency supply too.

Breastfeeding obviously has many advantages, but adding some formula on top of it doesn't somehow detract from those benefits. Geez. (and that doesn't even get into when breastfeeding is impossible or extremely difficult, making formula the best option).

The internet is a strange place.