Where do we go from here?

[komos.livejournal.com]

A couple of days ago, plumtreeblossom and I began a conversation about the davis_square community and some of the changes that have been happening as the list has grown and various folks have been figuring out ways to make use of the space in new ways. As you may recall, I opened a breakaway community (davissquare) a little over a year ago. Though that space has remained largely dormant, it's never actually been deleted. This would be only tangentially relevant except that over the past few weeks, I've received several requests to reopen davissquare and retool it to be a moderated posting community.

There's a certain irony in this since davissquare was originally founded in response to moderated posting being briefly enforced here, but I can understand and have shared some of the frustrations that have been highlighted. Before considering a radical move, I brought concerns to plumtreeblossom so the mods would at least be in on the loop that there was some behind-the-scenes grumbling. She suggested that I share with the community as a whole so everyone can speak out and offer some input as to the direction we should be headed.

The complaints that I've received have been about a handful of things:

1) Rants that are at best tangentially related to Davis Square and really would be better placed in private journals;

2) Minutiae about restaurant & business openings and closings;

3) Repeated requests for the same services; and

4) Members who take it upon themselves to police the list or who otherwise use the space as a personal sounding board.

Weirdly enough, we've not really had issues with marketing.

From here, it'd be good if we could begin a conversation about how we'd like to use the space and how we'd like to see the space used. I'm hoping that there might be some simple solutions that we can come up with that will help this space remain useful and usable.

Comments

[ron_newman]

My feeling is that anything related to Davis Square or the immediately adjoining area of North Cambridge belongs here. Some people, including me, have also posted event announcements for other parts of Somerville (especially Union Square), but I haven't seen people complain about them.

Most of us observe lj-cut ettiquette, which enables people to quickly skip by stuff that doesn't interest them.

[tut21.livejournal.com]

I'm brand new here and I like everything but the rants. I read the post headlines in an RSS reader which makes skipping uninteresting posts trivial.

[jmorash.livejournal.com]

As is, it's perfectly fine. Occasionally useful, occasionally entertaining. All internet forums have people who complain about them more than is warranted. No big deal.

[ad-lib.livejournal.com]

i personally don't understand why anyone gets their panties in a bunch about an lj community.

[watchamacallit.livejournal.com]

Because this community recently went from useful to a full-on affront of annoying, repeatedly posted information. It's slowly turning into b0st0n without the enjoyment of snarkiness. My panties aren't in a bunch but I have to keep dropping the community before I tear into people for being so damn brainless. You know that's really difficult for me!

[inkscarred.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think if another davis square community was opened people would cross post and you'd just see the same posts in both communities. While, sure, there are things that aren't totally relevant posted in this community, I don't think it's all that bad. Compared to the drama and ridiculous bickering on many lj forums, this one is pretty tame. A solution would be to have the mods of this community more strictly enforce the rules (deleting off topic posts, warning/banning trolls and other inappropriate users, etc.)

[komos.livejournal.com]

I'm guessing that what we're seeing are the first rumblings of the drama and bickering as they grow. To an extent, it's inevitable that as a community grows there will be conflicting personalities. Worst case scenario is that this becomes more and more like b0st0n. Ideally, we find something that works to avoid that.

The active mod model could work, but I'd like to hear from them before we start volunteering their time & effort.

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

One of the things komos and I discussed was the growing need for a community archivist to help us better organize posts and reduce repeted requests for the same businesses/services. It's definitely a problem, with requests for auto repair, hair stylists, and such popping up over and over again. We need a system to channel people to the already existing posts we have for those sort of things. I know I don't have the know-how or time to do it, and I don't kbnow if the other mods do, either.

ron_newman is very on top of the community and the tagging, perhaps moreso than any of us. I'd like to nominate him to take on the duties of Archivist, whatever that ends up being. I do think a lot of the frustration is fueled by people seeing the same posts over and over again, and I suspect Ron might be a good person to have managing the tags/memories or whatever system is needed for streamlining searches for local services.

[inkscarred.livejournal.com]

you know that any member can tag an entry, right? The mods just need to create the appropriate tags. So if a mod spent 10 minutes typing in things like "restaurtant-reviews, restaurant-openings, politics, veterinary clinics, local politics, etc." then we could all tag entries.

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

This is about as useless of a suggestion as it was last time this cropped up. Skim over the posts that aren't interesting, read the ones that are. It's that simple. There really just isn't as much junk posted here as you seem to think.

[komos.livejournal.com]

The last time changes to the community came up as a discussion topic, it led to far less arbitrary application of community rules and did away with capricious moderation. I would argue that both changes were necessary and useful.

I'll put you down as an advocate of user-end filtering, and there is certainly an argument for that approach.

[bex77]

Thanks for fostering a discussion. My quick answer is that I think things are mostly fine.

I have noticed posts in the four categories, but mostly because they are relatively rare here, compared to other communities. If people abide by the LJ-cut rules, they aren't a problem for me. I find 1, 3, & 4 slightly annoying, but I love knowing about the restaurants and such. I am not a fan of much policing, so that you have to agonize in-depth over every post, and whether you've obeyed the rules.

[ayelle.livejournal.com]

I don't have any major issues, myself -- for the most part, I don't see large-scale patterns of problems that seriously interfere with my ability to find the community useful and pleasant. Some of the complaints listed above don't quite make sense to me; I find announcements about Davis business opening/closings to be generally useful (and, I would have thought, a large part of the point). Even repeated requests for local services don't really bother me, since the information people respond with does change gradually over time, and many requests are similar and yet not identical and are answered with slightly different information.

I definitely agree that judicious LJ-cutting is vital! Almost nothing will bother me if it's made obvious from the cut tag that I'm not going to be interested (or I've seen it before), and I can scroll right past it.

Rants only bother me sometimes, though obviously I agree that if they are not really related to Davis Square, they should go elsewhere. As for problems with particular members, much as I'd like to zap the posts of people who annoy me personally, I'm sure EVERYONE here can think of a member or two of the community who irritates them. I picture attempts to target things along those lines quickly degenerating into a free-for-all "everything should stay just the way it is except this person shouldn't be allowed to post on this topic" kind of debate. I've been satisfied with the efforts of the current moderators to zap the people who are being totally inappropriate and irrelevant.

On the other hand, if there were a significant number of people who were dissatisfied with this community's focus, and wanted a Davis Square-related community that operated in a substantially different way, that's fine too. Internet's big enough for everybody. If it were different enough from this one, people might even join both.

(Rambling now) I could see an argument for two kinds of D_S communities: one for all announcements great and small related to Davis Square business/government/issues/parking/etc etc, and another intended as a social forum for people who lived in the Davis Square area, where members could probably talk about whatever they wanted. The first one would most likely be filled with minutae, the second undoubtedly with rants. I've been relatively happy with the balance this single community's achieved, but because of the conflicts between the two rather different purposes it's trying to serve, I find myself doubting that there could ever *be* a balance that was totally satisfactory for everyone.

Ultimately, as far as I'm concerned, if it's related to Davis Square and relatively civil (and lj-cut if it's long), I don't have a problem with it being here. (Alas, that still leaves the problem of how you officially define "related to Davis," "civil" and "long...")

[in-parentheses.livejournal.com]

Word, to just about everything ayelle said. I think the changes made after the last kerfuffle were improvements, and I don't really see any serious current problems. Everything has been intelligently lj-cut as far as I can tell, so if you're not interested, scroll on past!

Talk it out!

[closetalker11.livejournal.com]

I don't find there to be too much "junk" either ... as has been mentionned, I just don't read it if I don't want to know. But I'm nosy, so I usually want to know :). I do understand others' being annoyed, however.

What I would hate is seeing posts that have so many "I promise I checked the memories, I promise I checked the archives, I promise I googled this, I don't mean to offend you, I hope I'm allowed to post on this public forum" disclaimers on posts. I don't mean to imply this happens now, but I wouldn't want it to be the result of this discussion. I like the idea that, even though I'm not so "connected" in this community, I can add my input with fear of retribution.

I do think it's a good idea to let new LJ users (such as myself) know about the "rules" that exist in many of thse communities (like checking memories, etc).

Re: Talk it out!

[closetalker11.livejournal.com]

I mean withOUT fear!! Oops. That's kind of a vital omission ...

[uberjay.livejournal.com]

FWIW, I think the current level of information is perfectly acceptable. I like knowing about local businesses opening and closing... I think the someday/mr. crepe issue is special, too, since it was an important issue for so many Davis Square residents.

[nowalmart.livejournal.com]

I do not mind almost any posts. I think the fact that Mr. Crepe reopening was one of the things that sparked this is simply amazing - the closing of Mr. Crepe and the closing of the Someday Cafe were *huge* events in the community (both the LiveJournal one and the actual physical Davis Square community).

The reopening of one of the places in the spot of the other? Big news.

About the only thing that ever gets to me is the repeated asking for "What is the best gym? The best dry cleaner?" posts. I have absolutely no problem skipping over those. In the end, I feel like skipping over them is the best solution. Any other solution would just be overkill, I feel.

I am not in favor of moderation of this community (or any Davis Square community). I feel that almost everyone on here is very polite and understanding, and that people not only avoid the trolls that are few and far between, but also do a good job of self-policing.

[watchamacallit.livejournal.com]

Who decided Mr Crepe vs Someday was a HUGE event for EVERYONE? I know quite a few people who really don't give a hoot (myself included) and had to wade through dozens of posts over the past 6 months. And it still goes on. Enough already!

[hauntmeister.livejournal.com]

I'm not seeing much of a problem here. Yes, we have the occasional person who says something like, "I wanted to tell this story to a lot of people, but not enough friends read my own journal, so I decided to inflict it on the community at large." But I usually just mentally pity them and scroll on.

What I find less reasonable is the cross-posted entries. As far as I'm concerned, if something's posted here, it should be specifically relevant to only Davis Square, not just farted over here because the poster thinks that readers of Davis Square have demographic qualities similar to their target audience.

[curly-chick.livejournal.com]

I like it as is. Maybe a reminder for people to use LJ cut tags is warranted. But seriously why the heck can't people just scroll down if they aren't interested?

[lillibet.livejournal.com]

I don't have much to add, but thought it might help to add my voice to the chorus of "It seems fine to me". I don't really understand why people who don't enjoy reading the community stay subscribed to it--if the signal-to-noise ratio is not high enough to make it a useful group, then why read it at all?

[fidgetmonster.livejournal.com]

as communities grow, new people aren't going to know the "rules" and mores. in another years time this same discussion will happen again as all the newbies who are excited about living in Davis will ask the same questions and post the same minutia that bugs the old-timers. it mirrors a bit the off-line community of how the townies sometimes barely put up with obnoxious newcomers. that's why I don't think a splinter group is a good idea (though I understand why it was done last time) because an "us and them" attitude is never inclusive and community-minded. nor does it foster problem solving, which is necessary to promote a stronger community. in my opinion, the change that happened to this community last time made it open and easy for the community to evolve and self-police, which is why I think it's great that you made this post here, and why I think it's a little underhanded for the people who were unhappy didn't actually talk to the moderators (I'm making an assumption here, based on what you said in your post.)

[komos.livejournal.com]

I readily confess that the thought has crossed my mind as well, even before anyone dropped a line inquiring about the dormant community. From my perspective, it was more a question of whether change could be effected through discussion than a plot to undermine the community. I decided to bring it to the table because I also prefer the idea of a single open community, and also because I respect plumtreeblossom's views and figured that she would have an idea of how to proceed.

The cyclical nature is something to consider, but I'm not entirely averse to revisiting the idea periodically or, preferably, coming up with something like a FAQ or a better archiving system that lessens the need for it.

Mostly, I think things are fine, too.

[magpie-leah.livejournal.com]

I personally have no complaints about this LJ. I just skip over things I don't want to read. And those things are in the minority for me. But I have a suggestion...

It looks like there are some guidelines for the community if you click here:
http://community.livejournal.com/davis_square/profile

but let's face it -- for most people it's probably not in your face and easy to see to that page.

I think that when/if someone makes a faux pas that's against the guidelines, someone can politely point them to that page. Others who may never have seen the guidelines will see and read that page too.

And maybe once a month a mod can post an entry that's a reminder about the guidelines so that people who have just joined get this information.

[dani-namaste.livejournal.com]

I agree. I also wonder at the relevance of tagged posts, as unless I'm unique, people generally read the posts through their friends list, and not through the LJ itself.

Personally, I'm strongly in the "why not just scroll past it?" camp. Although I will admit that the number of posts in most of my communities/friends posts that I just scroll past has increased of late.

[jadelennox]

the signal-to-noise ratio is not nearly as bothersome to me as having to deal with all the cross posts between the Davis Square, Central Square, Somerville, etc. communities. One more community just means one more location for cross posting -- but one more community I probably have to read if I want to catch everything. Unless there starts to be a rule (and how would it be enforced?) that nothing can get crossposted in both communities, having to communities would actually worsen my LJ reading experience.

It would be different if we had the noise level of b0st0n or Arlingtonlist, but we don't.

[komos.livejournal.com]

I think the crossposting is going to be inevitable to an extent, especially when it is in regards to events or information gathering.

I think most everyone is going to agree that we don't want the noise level of b0st0n, and this may be nothing more than an attempt to see whether the overall perception is that we are nowhere near it or if we're seeing it start. Seems the former is the case, and I'm good with that.

[hrafn.livejournal.com]

I really haven't noticed a problem, and it seems that having two separate LJs related to Davis Square wouldn't necessarily be an improvement. I'm also only subscribed to two local LJs, this one, and somervillemass, so at worst I only see the same announcements twice, which happens fairly infrequently, and they're easy enough to just scroll past (ditto the requests for info on things I neither care about nor know about).

I don't know how much time and effort it would take to add lots of these requests to the memories page, and train people to look there, first - having a nice archive would be excellent, and where I would recommend moderators/others put their efforts (though I can also understand wanting a better/easier/improved tagging system).

But mostly, really, I don't see any major problems. When someone has occasionally - very occasionally - gotten out of line, it seems that they get corrected quite promptly, and I haven't seen many (any?) repeat offenders.

[ron_newman]

A small request to the original poster: could you please give this post a Subject so that people can find it later? Thanks. (If you do so, I'll delete this comment.)

[wildflowersoul.livejournal.com]

4) Members who take it upon themselves to police the list or who otherwise use the space as a personal sounding board.

no problem here

[allli.livejournal.com]

wow, it really surprises me that some people have complaints about this community; i think it's very civil, well-managed and relevant. and interesting.

after all, it's modeled after a physical/social community, and is a social community- and behaving exactly like one. some people are "louder" than others. some people (or posts) can be ignored. etc.

i like minutiae. i believe that minutiae (sp?) is what makes a community.

Re: no problem here

[lonelyholiday.livejournal.com]

after all, it's modeled after a physical/social community, and is a social community- and behaving exactly like one.

Well said! There are some business in Davis Square that don't interest me. I don't visit them. There are some posts in davis_square that don't interest me. I don't go beyond the cut or read the comments. Simple!

I like the minutiae too.

[slinkr.livejournal.com]

I think the community is pretty good as-is. If there were two Davis Square communities with only an underscore to differentiate their names, I think it could be really hard to keep track of what to post in which one.

[maclou.livejournal.com]

I really don't see the problem. I really don't think this community has gotten worse at all. I think if in involves Davis Square it can be posted here, just because some people aren't interested in something doesn't mean nobody is. If you don't want to read something, it's not too hard to just skip over it.

Also I don't see how this community is anything like b0st0n. The problems people are describing arn't even the same as the problems b0st0n has. Everyone here is much nicer and more helpful :) Which is actually probably why people come asking the same questions so often...

Yeeeeah so nothing to add really, I just agree with everyone who's saying it it's really not so bad!

[four-thorns.livejournal.com]

i don't have any complaints about the community, but i do think that searching back entries could be made easier, so that people could find them better and then we ideally wouldn't have to see the same questions asked over and over. i still have no idea how to search by tag, and i've tried to figure it, but where are they listed? userinfo? memories? i can't manage to find them anywhere, and there doesn't seem to be much point in tagging entries if people can't find the tags.

[magpie-leah.livejournal.com]

It's a good point that finding out how to search on LiveJournal is ridiculously obscure.

You have to:
> click livejournal userinfo
> and then click the magnifying glass
Or just use this link:
http://www.livejournal.com/tools/search.bml?journal=davis_square

It's not a very good performing search at all though.

[overstim.livejournal.com]

Wow. Just.. wow.

Did ya hear? there's a war going on, George W can open your mail and tap your phone, and the hoursing market is collapsing...

[ariwriter.livejournal.com]

The hoursing market? Where?!?

As the saying goes...

[ariwriter.livejournal.com]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Leave things the way they are.