election tomorrow

[cos]

Tomorrow, Tuesday May 15th, is the general election for the open seat on the Somerville Board of Aldermen. The two top candidates from last month's primary, Marty Martinez and Jack Connolly will be on the ballot.

Polls are open 7am - 8pm, and you can find your polling place at WhereDoIVoteMA.com. All Somerville voters can vote in this election (election info from the city).

Many people who voted in the primary will forget to vote again tomorrow, so both candidates need some new voters as well as many of their supporters from April as they can get. If you're supporting Jack, this is your chance to make a comeback; if you're supporting Marty, don't assume he'll win. Vote!

Comments

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

I was under the impression that only citizens could vote anyway. Not trying to start a war here, and I'm a Marty supporter, but isn't that just how it works?

[cos]

Sort of. Only citizens have a state-constitutionally protected right to vote, but that doesn't prevent us from allowing other people to vote. Up until about a hundred years ago, it was pretty standard practice to allow noncitizens to vote, but anti-immigrant movements changed those laws until noncitizen voting was pretty much wiped out throughout the country.

In recent years there's been a movement to bring it back, for municipal elections only. A ballot measure in San Francisco last year to allow noncitizen parents of kids in public schools to vote for school committee came very close to passing. A few years earlier, Cambridge passed a measure to allow all noncitizens legally in Cambridge to vote for both school committee and city council, but Cambridge was unable to get authorization from the state legislature to actually make it happen. Somerville has a lot of immigrants, which means that not allowing them to vote gives Somerville a very nonrepresentative government. Sentiment in Somerville seems to be in favor of exprimenting with some form of noncitizen voting. I'm certainly in favor of it, myself - I think you get better government when it has to be responsive to a broader section of the population it governs.

I want to be clear: I am not speaking for Marty, and do not know if he's raised this issue in the campaign at all. I'm just answering your question.

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

Interesting, thanks!

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

If you lived in France for six months or a year, would you expect to be able to vote in their elections, local or nationwide?

[cos]

I honestly don't know France well enough to answer that question. I would have no particular expectation.

If I were an American student living in Massachusetts 8-9 months a year and spending the remaining 3-4 months partly "back home" in, say, California, and partly elsewhere, I'd certainly expect to be able to vote in Massachusetts and in the municipal elections for the town my school residence were in.

However, this is a marginally-related tangent. We're not talking about expectations: Somerville's immigrants don't expect that they can vote, but that doesn't change my opinion that it would be better for Somerville if they could.

Nor are we talking about part-time residents: Somerville has a lot of noncitizen immigrants who live in Somerville full time and have been for years. Somerville also has a lot of students who are away for months each year, who are eligible to vote in Somerville.

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

I didn't ask about students, part-time residents, or people from California. US citizens can already vote, so there's no need for debate there.

My question, reframes, is how long would you need to live in a foreign country before you think you should be able to vote in their city elections?

"Somerville has a lot of noncitizen immigrants who live in Somerville full time and have been for years."

So you're advocating that only immigrants seeking permanent residence should be allowed to vote?

[cos]

My answer is that that's not what this is about. In other words, my answer to your question was "mu". We already allow people who move here to vote in municipal elections right away (subject to the 20 or 30 day registration deadline), even if they come from very far away. What we're talking about is the distinction between citizens (allowed to vote) and noncitizens (not allowed to vote) - without any regard to how long they've been here or where they moved from. You could be an American citizen because you were born to a soldier in Germany, grow up in Germany, move here at age 40, and vote the following month. You could have grown up in Somerville from age 2 months, be a noncitizen when you turn 18, and not be allowed to vote. This isn't about length of residence. If you want limitations by length of residence, advocate for those. We don't have them.

I have no problem with anyone who actually lives in a city voting in its elections, even if they just got there recently. So I would oppose voting restrictions based on length of residence. However, that's a completely different matter, and I don't appreciate your trying to change the subject without acknowledging that you're changing the subject. You seem to be trying to imply that citizens are obviously from here, noncitizens are obviously not from here, and this is a good reason for noncitizens not to be allowed to vote. Not only is that not true (some noncitizens are more "from here" than some citizens), but it also completely ignores what I said, which is that it would be better for Somerville if noncitizens were allowed to vote, not that they have an expectation of voting or a right to vote.

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

If you want limitations by length of residence, advocate for those.

Actually, from your post I thought you were advocating that. You keep talking about how long people live here.

You seem to be trying to imply that citizens are obviously from here, noncitizens are obviously not from here, and this is a good reason for noncitizens not to be allowed to vote. Not only is that not true (some noncitizens are more "from here" than some citizens), but it also completely ignores what I said, which is that it would be better for Somerville if noncitizens were allowed to vote, not that they have an expectation of voting or a right to vote.

Right now we've got a simple rule: you have to be a citizen to vote. What rule are you going to replace it with? Do you want a system where someone can come in, show an address, get registered, and vote the same day? You're down on length of residency requirements, so what's your alternative? Relying on the essential good nature of man?

If residency is good enough to vote, then what about local business people? If someone owns a business in Davis Square, but they live in Medford, should they be able to vote in local elections? If someone has had a business in Davis for 20 years, he'd likely to know far more about local politics than most of the people who're voting. So if residency is all that matters, why not him? Aren't his views just as valid as a non-citizen who's living here?

[turil.livejournal.com]

I would say that anyone who has an honest interest in Somerville should be able to vote on at least some Somerville issues. If you live here, do business here, have to travel through here, or even live a few streets away, you definitely have a good reason to care about what happens here.

I think the main thing that people are afraid of is that whole "us vs. them" thing. And I think the way to get around that is to create a more collaborative government that aims for the best solution to problems, rather than a less effective solution that benefits only the majority or even a minority.

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

So would you limit who could vote at all? Or anyone who cared enough to vote in local elections would be all the qualification you needed?

[cos]

... and if I were eligible to vote in California and moved to Somerville I would most certainly expect to be eligible to vote in Somerville pretty close to right away - and I would be. There's no six month waiting period. Practically speaking, there's a 30 day waiting period because of our voter registration deadline, but as soon as Massachusetts gets same day registration that would be gone. For example, NH has same day registration. If you pack up your stuff in your car and drive up there, and decide you're gonna live there, and they have an election tomorrow, you could legally vote in NH tomorrow (even if you haven't found an apartment yet).

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

So you can vote in New Hampshire elections without a New Hampshire address? Can you point me to a link on that?

As far as the California thing goes, you're changing the subject without answering the question. If you went to another country (any country, you can pick), how long would you need to live there before you felt like you should be able to vote in their elections?

[cos]

Read my answer above. But I'm getting increasingly frustrated at what seems like intellectual dishonesty from you, so I'm not going to respond any further on this thread.

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

So you just made up that New Hampshire thing, right? Honestly, I've Googled for it and everything I can find says that they require an address before you can vote. Without an address how would they even know where you would vote?

I'm not sure how I'm being intellectually dishonest. I'm just trying to understand your position.

I think what you're saying (and feel free to clarify) is that you think people who come to Somerville, even if they're here for just one day, and say that they should be able to vote if they hit the 30 day registration deadline. But if you went to another country, you wouldn't expect to be able to vote in their elections even if you were there for a year.

Is that what you believe? That you're willing to give out rights in your own country that you wouldn't expect if you were in another country?

[dominika-kretek.livejournal.com]

In case anyone cares, it seems to me that signing an affadavit that you intend to establish residency in New Hampshire and that you have a place to return to is all the "proof of domicile" you need to vote in New Hampshire. I'd be surprised if it were otherwise, since U.S. citizens in most (if not all) states have a right to vote. You neighborhood clerk would probably be skeptical if you put where you parked your car (assuming you are living out of your car) as your domicile, but if you were doing it in good faith, you could probably get away with it. If you were staying in a motel you could certainly put that location.

If I actually lived in France, made France my home, participated in the community, paid taxes to France, then I would want to vote in at least some of the elections. I wouldn't expect to, since everyone makes their laws as they see fit. But I would definitely want to.

[turil.livejournal.com]

Why should voting in Somerville have anything to do with where you lived before you moved to Somerville? Why discriminate against people who moved from Canada, or Africa, or England, but not California, or Hawaii, or Vermont?

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

So if you moved to Canada or Africa or England you'd expect to be able to vote in their elections, even if you were still a US citizen?

[turil.livejournal.com]

Again, expectations are very different from potentials. We have the potential to give everyone who actually cares about Somerville to have a voice in Somerville issues.

Also, you avoided my question. Why discriminate against someone simply because they happened to live outside of the US before they came to Somerville?

And to at least partially answer your question, yes I would expect to be able to vote in local elections in Canada if I moved there, since that is exactly what would happen. I don't know about Africa or England, but I expect that they might have similar policies as Canada.

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

Also, you avoided my question. Why discriminate against someone simply because they happened to live outside of the US before they came to Somerville?

If you're going to propose a change to the system, I'd like to know what your proposed system is. Personally, I'd keep the current system but make changes to the immigration laws to make the process of becoming a citizen faster than it is now.

I'm not advocating discriminating against anyone (pretty much all I've done here is ask questions), but I'm trying to understand what your position is.

And to at least partially answer your question, yes I would expect to be able to vote in local elections in Canada if I moved there, since that is exactly what would happen.

Based on what? From my Googling all the sources that I can find say you have to be a citizen (of Canada) to vote in Canada.

I don't know about Africa or England, but I expect that they might have similar policies as Canada.

In which case only citizens could vote. There are places that allow immigrants to vote, but you haven't hit one yet (AFAIK).

I don't (and haven't) objected to allowing immigrants to vote (again, I've only committed the thought crime of asking questions about it), but I would like to see a concrete proposal on the issue from the people who are advocating it.

[turil.livejournal.com]

Canada allows "landed immigrants" to vote in local elections where they live. Admittedly, becoming a landed immigrant is a fairly complex process, but that's sort of beside the point :-)

And as for a proposed policy, it depends on who you ask. Cambridge has one. My own policy would be more indepth. I'd let anyone vote who wanted to, but only if they participated in some kind of community program and/or took a class on Somerville issues, so that they at least had some solid basis for making good decisions about Somerville issues.

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

Canada allows "landed immigrants" to vote in local elections where they live.

Do you have a pointer for that? I Googled "Canadian landed immigrants" to see if that got a different result, and it didn't. And they call them "Permanent Residents" now, just like we do (if you can believe Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_resident_(Canada)

According to that page, Permanent/Landed Residents can't vote.

I'd let anyone vote who wanted to, but only if they participated in some kind of community program and/or took a class on Somerville issues, so that they at least had some solid basis for making good decisions about Somerville issues.

Do you have to pass the class, or just attend it?

[penny-chase.livejournal.com]

From Wikipedia it wasn't clear to me if landed immigrants can vote in local elections, but according to the Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrant's web site, at least in Ontario, only citizens can vote in local elections (see http://www.settlement.org/sys/faqs_detail.asp?faq_id=4000564). From Googling, I gather that this was a campaign issue in last year's election for the mayor of Toronto.

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

I'd let anyone vote who wanted to, but only if they participated in some kind of community program and/or took a class on Somerville issues, so that they at least had some solid basis for making good decisions about Somerville issues.

You're aware that this is the kind of thing you have to do to become a US citizen, right?

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

You need an address to register to vote in New Hampshire:

http://www.sos.nh.gov/vote.htm

"You may register as soon as you move into your new community.

HOW TO REGISTER
1) Apply to your town or city clerk's office. You will be required to fill out a standard voter registration form and will be required to show proof of age, citizenship and domicile.

[and]

3) Qualified individuals may also register to vote at the polling place on election day at all elections. You will be asked to show proof of age, citizenship, and domicile."

I'm still not sure how I'm intellectually dishonest. Dishonest implies lying, but I only asked questions and didn't misrepresent any facts (as you did). So is that like a thought crime? I don't think the way you do, so that's intellectually dishonest?

[heliograph.livejournal.com]

In one (the only?) debate, Marty said he thought immigrants should be able to vote in Somerville elections, and both of the other candidates said that only citizens should be allowed to vote. They were both very firm about that.

Here's the story (posted on Marty's site):

http://www.martyforalderman.com/newsroom/esnc_forum.php