Shoveling sidewalks

[mem-winterhill.livejournal.com]

So some drama erupted about Somerville shoveling today on the intertubz.

What do you guys think?

https://twitter.com/universalhub/status/432168697395154944

Comments

[mem-winterhill.livejournal.com]

As you might gather from that discussion, I have pretty strong feelings about this. I think that if you want to have a walkable city--it has to be walkable in all 4 seasons. If you want people to give up their cars, they have to be able to get their groceries home without hurdling huge banks of snow. On Thursday I had to stand 3 feet into Broadway at the bus stop for the 89 at the top of Winter Hill because there's no house there--no one is responsible for that.

And I'm currently able to hurdle snowbanks--but someday I might not be. There are plenty of people less able to do so, and they should not be at the whim of a property owner who doesn't (or sometimes can't) shovel.

If you want kids to walk to school, they shouldn't have to do so in the streets here. You want to have seniors who no longer drive to be able to get to stores and services, we have to get better at this.

This issue affects the most vulnerable disproportionately. And I think it's a public safety issue that deserves tax dollars.

I lived in Rochester NY for grad school 20 years ago, and they had sidewalk plowing. So other cities manage it. Sidewalk Snow Removal (http://www.cityofrochester.gov/article.aspx?id=8589936460).

[benndragon.livejournal.com]

I would say this is better taken up with your Alderman (http://www.somervillema.gov/departments/board-of-aldermen) than with random strangers on the internet.

[irilyth]

There must be a bunch of places that no private individual owns, but the city (or state, or whoever) does, like bus stops. Does the city (or state, or whoever) not have to shovel those places? That seems obviously wrong to me.

[keithn.livejournal.com]

Having lived in Rochester myself for ~6 years (2002-2008), I do think it is important to point out that Rochester is flat, not very dense, and has wide sidewalks, wide spaces between the sidewalk and streets, and wide streets (generally). This cannot be said of Somerville. The link you gave says that sidewalks are only plowed if they are at least 5 feet in width. At least in my neighborhood here in Somerville, there are no such sidewalks.

But I do agree with you, although for different reasons. We don't make property owners shovel the street in front of their house, so why the sidewalk? Why should the property owner be forced to clear city property that they may or may not use so that pedestrians who have to do no work at all may get the benefit of passing in front of their homes? "That's just the way it is," but that isn't a satisfying answer.

The problem is, cities that plow sidewalks do so with machines, and many of the sidewalks here in Somerville can barely be traversed by people, let alone mini-plows (I'm thinking about Hancock Street between Summer and Elm right now). The city would have to hire an army of shovelers, which would be pretty expensive. I'm just not sure it is practical. If we could do it with machines, I would trade the useless nine months of street sweeping for three months of sidewalk plows in a heartbeat.

[ron_newman]

Adding "religion" tag, since this appears to be about the church at Morrison and College Aves.

Is anyone here a member of that church?

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

Snow removal is a religious issue now??

[miss-chance.livejournal.com]

If the city intends to stay on the intended model of property owners are responsible and they get fines if they don't do it, then they have to change the enforcement model.

Right now Inspectional Services are in charge of sidewalk complaints. They have TWO inspectors, who are also in charge of every other thing in the City that has to be inspected. On the other hand, Traffic and Parking has how many PCOs (Parking Control Officers) who are out there ANYWAY, who could be given the ability to write two different kinds of tickets, one for parking, and one for sidewalks. This would require additional training for the PCOs, and might make them cover a little less territory in a beat, so they might need a few more, but they would still be cheaper and easier to do than new Inspectors.

Last time a friend of mine suggested this to the City, though, she got back "Oh, but we can't do that, because I.S. does sidewalks." it's like they're stuck in that mode and can't consider changing it.

[dougo.livejournal.com]

This model is doomed to failure if the fines are less than the cost of hiring someone to shovel.

I would rather the punishment be that the city hires someone to shovel and the bill for the shoveling goes to the property owner.

[intuition-ist.livejournal.com]

Before they start handing out fines wholesale, they'd better define what constitutes "shoveled". And it *doesn't* consist of "a path X inches wide" -- because sidewalks throughout the city are different widths. Nor does it consist of "down to the pavement" because sometimes weather conditions make that impossible. If I'm going to have a chance of getting a fine, I want to know how to avoid it.

We do our best to shovel and salt (my god the money i've spent on salt/snowmelt this year alone...), but my house has a very poor drainage situation due to lot size and house placement, and there WILL be an ice slick at one point on the sidewalk, no matter how much I try to stop it. I'd have to have a jackhammer to keep that section of the sidewalk completely clear of ice. Every winter, I'm constantly terrified that someone will have an accident walking by my house and sue me for money I don't have.

Clearly I'm not one of the scofflaws that just never bothers to shovel. Just as clearly, if the city wanted to, they could fine me pretty much every snowstorm. Because of my situation, I'm glad that the enforcement is so lax, but the unshoveled sidewalks make it really hard to get around in winter. I pretty much stop walking anywhere and go out only when I absolutely have to, or there's a place I know will allow me to park. It's not healthy, but I'm also not nursing various assorted sprains and bruises from taking a nosedive on icy walks. Me, I'm just dreaming of the day when I can go somewhere that doesn't have so much snow in winter. :\

[gruene.livejournal.com]

This.

Impeding the roads during a snow emergency: $100.00
Impeding the sidewalks for days after the snow emergency is over: $25.00 (rarely enforced)

You can see where the city's priorities are.

[courtney o'keefe (from livejournal.com)]

I found more discussion on this that includes some good advice about utilizing the City's social media sites to log concerns: http://bit.ly/1g7a7Lh

[enhf94.livejournal.com]

Am I correct that _nobody_ has spoken to the members or staff of the church about this beyond a snarky sign? At least, nobody who's on DSLJ/Reddit and bothered by it?

[ron_newman]

Maybe the church wasn't open when someone decided to hang that sign?

[jimmyfergus.livejournal.com]

I spoke to the pastor of that church once on a different matter and after that experience don't relish doing it again. I was trying to use the crosswalk with two small children in tow, and had difficulty getting around the huge SUV his parishioners had parked blocking the crosswalk. I got shouted at and abused by him, even though I'd been civil.

So frankly, I don't want to talk to them any more; I just want to see them fined to the maximum of the law. They've shown time and again they have total disdain for their host community. As far as I know few of their parishioners live near the church - at least they seem to typically arrive in a fleet of cars.

I've called 311 this winter a few times on that church because they never clear, but either they're not being fined or they just don't care.

They bought the big stone church over the road but still hold on to the white wooden church at College & Morrison. They are diligent about clearing around the stone church when there is going to be a service on. Otherwise, they just don't seem to give a shit.

[nomacmac.livejournal.com]

I don't understand the need to call them. If you own property, it is your responsibility to maintain it. Do they really need a neighbor to ask them to be considerate human beings? Do we also need to call every dog owner and ask them to clean up after their dogs? They know what they are supposed to do, they are just choosing not to do it.

[koshmom.livejournal.com]

I found this: http://www.somervillema.gov/snow
Apparently homeowners are responsible, and get fined for not removing snow from sidewalks.
I don't see how a church would be exempt from the fines. Someone owns the land the church is on. I don't care if it's a person, a corporation, or a religious organization. That owner should be fined per the law.
What is interesting is that where I grew up churches had more than their share of willing volunteers within their church community to ensure that shovelling (and other building maintenance chores) were done. Why doesn't this church find people in their own parish/whatever to shovel?

[courtney o'keefe (from livejournal.com)]

This is a good point. I belong to First Church Somerville and they begin looking for people a couple of days in advance through their listserv. Ultimately, it turns into a potluck thing where people bring hot coco and food.

[billy (from livejournal.com)]

What a mess. :D

[curiositykt.livejournal.com]

It would at least make sense for the city to have the little bobcat sidewalk plows/shover/blowers for the major streets like college ave. Most cities that get snow do this in their business districts.

[chenoameg.livejournal.com]

Yesterday the city was going around with bobcats and dump trucks dealing with snow on major crosswalks and some hydrants.

[tequilamckngbrd.livejournal.com]

Just ask them to ask God to shovel the snow for them.

[pywaket.livejournal.com]

It's true that that church does a really crappy job. The most annoying thing is that they shovel the part that is important to them (a path to their doors) very well. They also do a really good job in front of their new, shiny building that they use most. It's really pretty obnoxious. The message they're sending is that they don't give a shit about anyone but themselves.

The UCC has also been doing a lousy job. Again, the path to their door is nice and clean, but the rest of it is packed down and really slippery.

[ron_newman]

Some patches of sidewalk on Packard Ave, between Broadway and Powder House Blvd, are treacherous, uneven sheets of solid ice.

[beowabbit]

(Note: I actually live in Quincy, not Davis.)

I agree with you that it seems really really dumb that municipalities don’t plow sidewalks any more. (It used to be entirely standard; I don’t know when that shifted.) I do my best to shovel when there’s a storm, but I’m often away from home several days in a row, and then if my neighbours shovel the sidewalks are still impassible because of my house. And in fact my immediate neighbor shovels, but the houses on either side of us almost never do, so when we shovel, it doesn’t actually help; pedestrians need to walk in the street anyway. It would make much, much more sense for the city to shovel, and guarantee that the sidewalks are passable even if not every single household and business between where I am and where I want to get to manages to shovel.

If they wanted to leave the present system mostly in place, they could give property owners a day or two after a storm to shovel, and then go through and shovel wherever a property owner hadn’t and charge the property owner with an additional fee on their property taxes.

(Towns that theoretically can fine property owners for not shovelling, but that never clear sidewalks in front of municipal property like parks, particularly bug me. I’m looking at you, Malden!)

[koshmom.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I think that Malden doesn't own either a plow or a shovel! Quite often when I worked at a Malden office building, it was obvious that the roads were never plowed and the streets were only clear because cars trampled the snow down. Side streets were near impossible to drive on!

[living life happier (from livejournal.com)]

I'm so glad to see this discussion. So often I feel like pedestrians are completely ignored after a snowstorm. Walking in the narrow streets around here is just too dangerous, yet the sidewalks are often impassable. I agree with the OP - if Somerville wants to be considered a walkable city, then it has to be walkable year-round, and they need to take responsibility for clearing the sidewalks. If other cities do it, why can't we? And while we're at it, let's remember that this problem isn't limited to Somerville. I'd love to see ALL cities and towns doing this.

[somervilleguy.livejournal.com]

The city does plow sidewalks. Not all the sidewalks of course but a fair amount of them particularly in the squares or main roads.

They do, in my opinion a decent job of plowing and clearing sidewalks near city owned property.

The equipment used to clear sidewalks is very specialized and very expensive. A typical sidewalk plow costs between 40-70k and it's almost useless for anything other than clearing sidewalks. At least trucks can be used for other purposes when its not snowing.

Sidewalks are the responsibility of the property owner that abuts them. Always has been this way as far back as I can remember. Yes the city does plow the sidewalks in front of many homes and businesses on the main streets so I guess you could say they do selectively plow sidewalks for private citizens and businesses.

The city or the MBTA is doing an excellent job of clearing the snow from bus stops this winter. Whomever is paying for this is doing so at great expense. This last storm I have seen no less than three contractors with a large amount of equipment removing snow from the stops and trucking it away. A big problem with this seems to be that the city is running out of space to put the removed snow so I don't know what they will do if it continues to pile up.

My one major complaint with the snow removal this year and in recent years has been the amount of salt used is really extraordinarily excessive. Last month Broadway from the Arlington line all the way to winterhill was a giant salt mine. There was an inch or more of salt on the ground particularly at the rotary at Powderhouse square. So much so that my eyes and throat became itchy just from driving down the street after the cars in front of me kicked it into the air. That's a really big waste of money and a health concern.

[witchdogtor.livejournal.com]

GOOD LORD the salt! Just walking along Broadway after the last storm was walking through a saltstorm of white that I literally tasted just by breathing. If the dogs can't walk on the stuff without it burning their paws, should I, um, be concerned about inhaling it?

I have no complaints about the sidewalks. Asking residents to clear the snow abutting their property seems perfectly reasonable (as opposed to expecting the city to buy those cute little snow removal vehicles and doing every single sidewalk in the city - think about the logistics of that), and the vast majority do it well. Some people/organizations are going to fail at it (and they should be fined, of course), so I wear snow boots.

[mem-winterhill.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to link to this piece for future reference. It's not just here, of course.

http://streetsblog.net/2014/02/19/why-clearing-sidewalks-isnt-a-priority-like-plowing-streets/